I need to get this off my chest...

[Gamzee Makara]

-honks in the distance for fun-

---EDIT---

So I had literally no Idea what was going on, like, even the actual base assault/factionfight/whatever the hell. Like seriously, all this stuff went over my head. Just, PEWF, missed it. Just learned that it was happening when I found this thread. At any rate, after pouring (poring?) over a few different related threads and discussions, I have to split my agreement to basically all of you because all of you bring up valid points, some more terse and blunt than others.

Some of Guu's fears are fairly well-founded, and I think that it is pretty unfair that the members of NB had to abandon some near future plans. However, I don't actually think that anyone was forced into doing this. You said it yourself; people dropped out. Battle is not necessary. Fleeing is always an option. In fact, this didn't have to end in a PVP at all. There were other solutions to this, but this is how things ended up. I do not however think that people OOC would go as far as to befriend you and then use this to IC betray you? If that is what you were getting at? I do not harbor immediate distrust for the friends I have made(not implying that you do). In fact, I consider myself friends with pretty much everyone that has made a post in this thread. That said, I don't think it is fair to just assume that they did all of this just for the hell of it and because they purposefully wanted to ruin everyone's plans. Might I reiterate, however, that it was not exactly fair of them to go about this the way they did. I suppose my main thoughts are that yeah, there are some problems with some of this that has been happening, but I think there is a tad bit of overreaction here. But then again, I'm not in charge of a faction, just a part of one. I don't have to deal with the stress you do, and I'm trying to imagine if it was Ambrosia being assaulted how I would feel about it and what I would do. It's hard to accurately type down my feelings on this whole subject as words....

I agree with Thaal's Notion that this is simply how this works, like, it is a PVP PbP site. It's true. Fights happen. You can lose, or you can win; there are consequences for both. He also brings up a lot of valid points about artifacts. But yeah, I'm not gonna sit here and retype the above. There were better ways to go about this.

Nealapph, I strongly agree with. This is a first for this site. Mistakes will be made. They are not the first mistakes, nor will they be the last. The topic of miscommunication is also a noteworthy one, as that misfortune will bring a serious shitstorm. The thing is, it's hard to find a solution for that. It's not exactly black and white. Sure, okay, yeah, they could have like, formally announced that hey, this is a thing thats happening, but thats counter-productive and franklyboring Personally, I think that the lesser of two evils would have been to message the leader of the opposing team and requesting a secret collaboration of sorts, that way the rest of the site would have been genuinely surprised. They could have even gone as far as to keep it hush-hush from the rest of the members of the defending team(i.e. only the leader knows about the attack)

That, is creating a story.

But this isn't JUST a book. It's an RPG.

Going as far as to orchestrating a genuine surprise attack counts as a logical tactic to be used in this game. Can it be unfair? Yes. Do Villains EVER play fair? No. No they do not. It's just a matter of keeping character and player/writer separate. However, even if a player is genuinely simply trying to stay in character, his or her morals will always be called in to question because of the nature of the stakes.

I'm not touching Metagaming, or the topic of banishment, as my input on both of those subjects is not helpful in the slightest. Briefly, I will note that this is a bout between NB and LAW, and other characters have no business partaking unless they just happen to within sight of the ensuing battle.

IMPORTANT GENUINE ADVICE/IDEA:

Perhaps there should be a sort of buyable base upgrade that allows for a sort of Passive Mode or status, in which case the Faction with this upgrade would be unable to take aggressive action towards other factions or even individuals in exchange for amnesty in situations like this. This should be an almost permanent buy, one for factions that would desire no assaulting of any kind, defensive or offensive or whatever.

Please forgive my rambling. It's 2 am.

Honestly, this whole discussion topic is starting to feel like the squabblings of five year olds.[spoiler][/spoiler]

---MORE DEDIT----

I would also like to say that I am trying to be as impartial as possible. Like I said, I consider basically all of you my friends, and I don't want to really take sides on this, just pointing out some things about some things that were said.

[Thaal Sinestro]

The primary reason that we did a surprise attack (which I don't really consider metagaming, because it's only purpose was to CIRCUMVENT metagaming) was too prevent the much larger and much more connected NB from being able to prepare OOC reenforcements and sequestering their assets. Like, we wanted it to be an ACTUAL surprise attack, primarily so that we could accomplish the desired goal of a surprise attack.

I have few doubts on my mind that Sasuke would have used OOC knowledge to effect his actions IC. Not a doubt on my mind. I wanted things to be fairly done from an IC standpoint, and I'm not gonna feel bad about taking steps to ensure that.

Additionally, it's not like surrender isn't an option. It's explicitly stated. Also, fleeing is obviously an option, it's not like Sinestro knows anyone but Gilgamesh.

As far as me carrying about other people's fun? Of all the people who have gone out of their way to help improve their writing or organize events or literally WHATEVER I CAN DO to improve people's experience... Like wow, yeah, no, I must hate all of you to dedicate so much time and energy for no reciprocation.

I do, however, have IC goals and aspirations. I do want to play my character and enjoy the PVP aspect of the site. That doesn't make me a shitty person, and neither does thinking tactically about the situation.

I said it before and I'll say it again, don't expect me to be real active in PvP or I guess in general after this, after all the pissing and moaning about something engaging and competitive it's obviously not something worth engaging in.

[Schwi Dola]

Well, this thread seems to be the most dramatic thing outside of Sasuke going from reasonable to dropping out in a single day.

To me at least, Thaal, I don't see that you've done anything wrong or that it'd be wrong to do it again. Its been the rules since I joined. What hasn't been tested and hopefully won't need to be tested is such a PvP event coming in at a time that would destroy plotlines.

[Monkey D. Luffy]

Since this thread has seen enough essay-long ranting and rhetoric, I'll just try my best to splay out some cliffnotes that everyone should take heed of.

For those who know me, I'm typically laid back, high-spirited, jovial, energetic, carefree, other ego-stroking adjectives. One of the least abrasive staffers for certain.

However, lately I've been irked, stressed and downtrodden by the state of this site, as well as the overall pisspoor attitude of its members.

• • Have no desire for Group PVP interactions? Don't join a faction. Factions inherently birth enemies for various reasons.
  
  • Don't want your personal goals or storylines interrupted? Stay clear of other players. Cases where you'll be forced to deviate from your plans are bound to happen when other PCs are involved, enemy and ally alike.
  
  • Don't want to risk being challenged for your Artefacts? Don't keep Artefacts. They're rare, valuable assets that other players desperately desire. You will inevitably have to fight to keep them.
  
  • Don't include Artefacts as a primary factor in your personal goals or storylines if they can be taken at any point in time. If you lose them, you're screwed.
  
  • Stop being absurdly dramatic every time things don't pan out your way.
  
  • Stop acting surprised when you have to engage in PvP on a predominantly PvP RPG.
  
  • Stop hysterically bellyaching whenever you lose something, whether it be an item, a battle, an event, reputation, so on.
  
  • Stop treating staff members like they're evil incarnate or somehow out to get you. We're here to help everyone, but we don't fancy helping those who challenge us every turn, or make our otherwise joyful service feel like stressful work. We realize that we have to earn your respect, but so too must you earn ours.
  
  • Most importantly, grow up. Stop acting entitled. Stop acting high and mighty. Stop acting privileged. Stop acting like you know all and anyone who disagrees is wrong. Stop searching for reasons to piss and moan.
  
  • Stop letting your IC persona overflow into OOC, turning you into a pretentious assbutt.
  

If any of this upset you as you read it, well then you're one of the people I'm talking to. You're ruining this incredible site. Fix it. Fix yourself. Then we can all get along, run the game smoothly, and enjoy it for what it's supposed to be.

[Yu Kanda]

Luffy summed it up..... i am backing this 100%.

[Schwi Dola]

I don't know all the details, but there is still value to Guu's sentiments Luffy. Without some cooperation, PvP can feel needlessly invasive. I don't think it was taken too far here and there is staff discretion in PvP events to decide when unfair targeting occurs.

[Monkey D. Luffy]

Oh, none of my statements were geared toward Guu. I can empathize with her. Being the head of her own faction definitely makes her a possible target. Fortunately, she hasn't done much to instigate aggression toward her or her gang of brosians.

[Retane]

• Stop letting your IC persona overflow into OOC, turning you into a pretentious assbutt.
[/list]

XD

I'm sorry man but I can't do that. I have a close bond with my characters>_> And I am an assbutt, my Girlfriend literally calls me a butthead... her butthead to be exact.

That being said. Here is where I stand when it comes to a lot of this. I see valid points from both sides.

First off, 20k words? Sign me up. I pride myself on making a good story.

That being said, I've been to the Afterlife on Chubbs. It's not fun and I died off and saw it kill a few others off. I've also seen dedicated players survive and come out even stronger. My view on Banishment is and always will be, I'll do it only when needed, OOC.

Do I fault LAW for what they did? Nope. Do I fault NB for any decision they make? Nope.

There are some characters that will just banish others, rather then kill. That is how they 'built' their character's.

This is a PvP site, where their is expected conflict. Every action has potential consequence.

Example: When everyone that joined DA, joined it they were there for fame, and Artefacts. The consequence for winning? A huge target on your back. Everyone has a story they want to tell, some have characters more versatile then others.

I used that knowledge and foresaw this, and have an IC/OOC respect for DA, and promised to vengeance against anyone that went after the winner.

As I see it, the members of LAW respected NB enough to give them time to where they are mostly active.

These same tactics were similarly used by NB in DA.

With actions comes consequence. It is how the game is meant to be.

Thats the end of it.

[Deadpool]

All I have to say on this is I think people should have more communication OOC.

What happened with planning out stories with your opposition? It's a lot more fun when there's more IC incentive--on both sides--to the fight, instead of just BOOM! I wanna fight you and be your enemy.

[Guu]

I don't think people really understand what's at stake with the LAW vs NB assault. If Babylon loses, everything they've worked so hard to create, months of work, thousands of words of writing, will be all for naught. I mean, it's clear LAW wants to wipe them out, or at least do a significant dent in them. When Sasuke left the fight out of stress, he was abandoning everything he's worked so very hard for entirely out of OOC reasons. Hell, he's risking getting his character branded as a traitor or a coward. Sure you can argue that could be an interesting storyline, but does anyone care if he WANTS to tell that story? I mean, he was the biggest innovator of the NB storyline for a while there. I'm pretty sure he had long term plans he's leaving behind.

Some say this is a PVP site, I quite disagree. We have PVP rules, but they are near the bottom for a reason. New members aren't required to know the combat rules at the start for a reason. Roleplaying comes first. The rules of conduct come first.

People may argue that Thaal's metagaming was justified because they would use the foreknowledge to get some more allies to fight with them, well WHO GIVES A FLYING SHIT?! They're fighting for everything they've worked so hard for, have a little bit more empathy for their goddamn story a little maybe? We're not playing stratego here; no matter what IC reason people may have, you're still stomping all over people's hard work and all I ask is people have a little more respect for that.

[Omni]

I dunno, Guuy. I can see things from your perspective, but they're also trying to have fun and you're making THEM feel bad and stressed because it conflicts with YOUR idea of fun. Which is ironic. Nobody is forced to partake in a base defense. Therefore, I say, let's all chill out and do the things we want to do and if you don't want to do something, don't do it. :frog:

[Deadpool]

I don't think people really understand what's at stake with the LAW vs NB assault. If Babylon loses, everything they've worked so hard to create, months of work, thousands of words of writing, will be all for naught. I mean, it's clear LAW wants to wipe them out, or at least do a significant dent in them. When Sasuke left the fight out of stress, he was abandoning everything he's worked so very hard for entirely out of OOC reasons. Hell, he's risking getting his character branded as a traitor or a coward. Sure you can argue that could be an interesting storyline, but does anyone care if he WANTS to tell that story? I mean, he was the biggest innovator of the NB storyline for a while there. I'm pretty sure he had long term plans he's leaving behind.
.

From my knowledge, NB fully supports what Sasuke chose to do, and it won't affect anything long-term.

[Victor Wolfe]

It won't he has IC reason and justification for it that our characters would understand.

[Magus]

I don't think people really understand what's at stake with the LAW vs NB assault. If Babylon loses, everything they've worked so hard to create, months of work, thousands of words of writing, will be all for naught. I mean, it's clear LAW wants to wipe them out, or at least do a significant dent in them. When Sasuke left the fight out of stress, he was abandoning everything he's worked so very hard for entirely out of OOC reasons. Hell, he's risking getting his character branded as a traitor or a coward. Sure you can argue that could be an interesting storyline, but does anyone care if he WANTS to tell that story? I mean, he was the biggest innovator of the NB storyline for a while there. I'm pretty sure he had long term plans he's leaving behind.

Some say this is a PVP site, I quite disagree. We have PVP rules, but they are near the bottom for a reason. New members aren't required to know the combat rules at the start for a reason. Roleplaying comes first. The rules of conduct come first.

People may argue that Thaal's metagaming was justified because they would use the foreknowledge to get some more allies to fight with them, well WHO GIVES A FLYING SHIT?! They're fighting for everything they've worked so hard for, have a little bit more empathy for their goddamn story a little maybe? We're not playing stratego here; no matter what IC reason people may have, you're still stomping all over people's hard work and all I ask is people have a little more respect for that.

You make some good points, Guu, but I disagree with you on a couple of fundamental ones. I think people know perfectly well what's at stake. That is literally the point of a base assault, isn't it? To wipe out your opponent? Or at the very least, to set them back.

Also, it's a little tiring to keep hearing 'metagaming' being used in reference to 'surprise attack.'

Without getting into the minutae again (seriously, it's all been talked to death) there's nothing meta about planning a surprise attack unless the character isn't someone who'd do that - and Thall is a cold, calculating man perfectly capable of capitalizing on an opponent's weakness, up to and including quietly massing an army. Doing 'the polite thing' and warning players OOC that it was coming would be metagaming.

I'm not about to make a judgement about if it's the way we want to go or not - I'm not on staff and can't make that call - but given the current ruleset, we need to accept that this is happening and will continue to happen, and that it's weird to demonize a group in spite of playing within the mechanics of the game we all signed up for.

And all is not lost for NB either. This is their chance to pull off a clutch play; who knows? Maybe the LAW overreached and is about to get the smackdown of the century?

Either way, currently, NB and the LAW are the stars of the Omniverse - all eyes on them. That's pretty cool, isn't it? And I think the players on either side of the conflict are strong enough writers to overcome any obstacle, including defeat.

[Guu]

Why is it so hard to understand why all this scares me? x.x

Have no desire for Group PVP interactions? Don't join a faction. Factions inherently birth enemies for various reasons.

I mean, this attitude. I mean, I get it, IC, you're constantly afraid that something horrible will come along and something WILL come along if you want to tell a good story, but the way we're doing it here, the way that may very well become the norm, we're forcing those very paranoias into OOC consciousness. It's not about corporative storytelling, it's about inflicting very real stress and fear on someone and then going "Well, it's your fault for running a faction, you should have played a loner." Do we really need to inflict actual mental strain on each other to get a tactical advantage in a forum RPG?

And you could tell them "it's just a game, deal with it" but it's also a lot of work and love people are putting into these things that's being taken for granted. I mentioned stratego in my last post, it's childish to get mad for losing a game in that because you only lost an hour of your time. Here, months or maybe years are on the line, and people will stress out over that for good reason; especially if they have real lives and it'll take forever to rebuild.

Please understand, I'm just scared what this all could mean for the site. Especially as a faction leader myself.

If you honestly think how we handle the very first faction war won't effect how we handle every single one from now how, just ignore this topic. I didn't want to start an argument when I wrote the OP, but things got out of hand and I am part of the problem.

I'm bowing out, there's not much more I can say. I'm sorry. I'm so very sorry if this debate caused anyone stress. #emotionalrollercoaster

[Corporal Light]

Personally, if people are going to completely blindside others OOCly as much as they are doing it ICly over fears of "metagaming," then they run the risk of looking like douchebags.

Not to say Thaal IS one, but no one should be worried about anybody else metagaming for any reason whatsoever. If people are seriously fussing about that, someone somewhere has screwed up.

But even that doesn't really excuse the fact that NB, allegedly, was never informed of this attack. Which is BS no matter how its put, in my opinion, especially since the entire thing can decide the fate of the faction itself. The total lack of cooperation between two factions OOCly will, and probably already has, cause animosity between the faction participants and just create something people may look back on as something that should've been thought over and NOT something where everyone must treat each other as an enemy, which is what the kind of vibe I've been getting is.

To me, the main issue is the fact that NB and LAW are NOT cooperating OOCly whatsoever, or at least weren't from the beginning of the discussion. If THAT can be solved and touched upon and fixed, then I'm cool with the rest. So please do that.

Aside from that, there will always be the inherent danger of factions dying off because another faction dislikes it. That much is certain. But to repeat: Please friggin plan this shit out instead of trying to make it an actual "surprise" and completely screw up future plans and just cause arguments over the suddenness of it. Oh, and TRUST the other side, for god's sake. If someone is doing something ICly for OOC purposes, then the mods should be able to handle it and I trust them TO handle it. It really isn't that hard to understand.

[Gildarts]

Reading this made me feel bad for wanting to participate in a site event.

[Ganondorf]

I had an extremely long post written in which I voiced my opinions about this, but after a bit of talking with friends and thought, I decided against submitting it. It had a lot of the old "Admin Jeff" in it, with me putting my foot down and putting on my Dad Boots. I'm not in a position to do that anymore, so I let it be.

Instead, I'll just say that I'm disappointed in a lot of the statements I've read as of late. There's been a severe lack of understanding going on amongst our members, from some condemning and shaming LAW for their actions, to others invalidating the valid concerns of other members. Whether the act itself was wrong or not doesn't really matter anymore. What matters is where we go from here.

Instead of talking about the past, this is when we should be discussing the future. And not the bleak "everything is gonna change into something awful" future. But instead how things will change for the better, because we'll MAKE things better. I'm always available to anyone who wants to figure out how to turn a big event like this into an opportunity to grow as a player and character. Like a flower which grows more beautifully when you turn the earth before planting it, change doesn't HAVE to be the end all for your plans. Instead, you can see it as a turning point to even greater things.

[Stephan Donnel]

AAAARGH!!!

For the love of GODMOTHERING EMPEROR

Get some damn meat on your bones. "Oh my, this offends someone, this is bad. Oh, god, I might get scared or stressed myself."

Seriously?

"Sorry" for being blunt, TAKE IT AND EAT IT. This isn't some land with dillie-dandie flowers, this is the damn internet, you knew what you bargained for when you got into this.

You can't handle the stress? Take a damn break. You don't want to engage in player-to-player interaction beyond having tea parties? Make it known and since most people here aren't total asshats we will probably oblige.

Dealing with faction wars? They are named wars for a fucking reason. Seriously, half that shit is supposed to be stressful. Metagaming? It is not metagaming, until your character somehow for no apparent reason knows that a faction is going to attack him based on a post made 2 hours ago in a thread 2 verses away or until you start killing people because someone offended you in the MChat.

[Minato Namikaze]

AAAARGH!!!

For the love of GODMOTHERING EMPEROR

Get some damn meat on your bones. "Oh my, this offends someone, this is bad. Oh, god, I might get scared or stressed myself."

Seriously?

"Sorry" for being blunt, TAKE IT AND EAT IT. This isn't some land with dillie-dandie flowers, this is the damn internet, you knew what you bargained for when you got into this.

You can't handle the stress? Take a damn break. You don't want to engage in player-to-player interaction beyond having tea parties? Make it known and since most people here aren't total asshats we will probably oblige.

Dealing with faction wars? They are named wars for a fucking reason. Seriously, half that shit is supposed to be stressful. Metagaming? It is not metagaming, until your character somehow for no apparent reason knows that a faction is going to attack him based on a post made 2 hours ago in a thread 2 verses away or until you start killing people because someone offended you in the MChat.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the message in this reply, I do disagree with the way you went about getting it across. Rather than having a calm and cool discussion, with worthwhile input, you decided to post a very aggressive and inflammatory post that won't really help the situation.

In the future, your replies to topics such as this do not really need to be so aggressive to get a point across.