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+--- Thread: I need to get this off my chest... (/showthread.php?tid=3206)
I need to get this off my chest... - Guu - 11-23-2015
I’m sorry if this offends people. No one needs to read this. I doubt my opinion will effect anything in the long run. I just need to speak my mind as everything as of late has taken a severe toll on me. Just write these off as the rantings of an absurdly petty person if you must.
I’ve just been so scared about how things have been going lately. The recent base assault on NB scares the hell out of me. The LAW people decided it had to be a surprise attack OOC as much as it was IC and then everyone treats Sasuke like shit for being stressed out that all his storyline plans have been put out to wash because a bunch of other members wanted to ruin everything for funsies. Now the whole thing has become a gigantic unplanned clusterfuck. No wonder people have been forced to drop out from the sheer stress of the thing, abandoning whatever plans they might have had.
Not to mention how quick a lot of people are to pull out banishment circles. Some members in the base assault were playing up banishment like it’s just a walk in the park, a fun little adventure, when the only way out can permanently taint your character and future storylines; especially if you’re good aligned. People argue that forcing people to go this route is okay because it makes the story more interesting in their eyes.
That’s the scary thing about this; people are so comfortable with forcing people into things. I’m terrified this might become the standard. I’m scared I’ll forever be questioning the motives of the friends I’ve made on this site, that trying to make a difference as a faction leader will just be an onslaught of constant paranoia and stress as anyone could just take all my work away from me in an instant.
Whatever happened to writing for fun?
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Tom Marvolo Riddle - 11-23-2015
I completely understand where your coming from. The only reason why I am as comfortable with this as I am is who I'm taking to NB. If this was Ururu I'd be out of there so fast it make people's heads spin. While it may be fun for a fight, there will be repercussions I plan to enforce myself if I have to. Banishment is a serious thing.
I think that its partially because people are comfortable here using other people's characters. Its not such a taboo to play with someone else's property. While I see reasons for allowing such a thing I do think it does act as a sort of gateway. But its not completely responsible or even wholely halfway.
Also interesting story telling seems to be a common excuse lie we tell ourselves.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Violet - 11-23-2015
Guu Wrote:Whatever happened to writing for fun?
This, this all of this. Thank you. The whole post was very nicely put, and I agree with you.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Shay Cormac - 11-23-2015
Well, now that you mention this, Guu...
I gotta say, since this is all still completely new to me, ever since this whole base assault thing started up, I figured it was just gonna be another chapter in poor ol' Shay's story, something to remember considering the game's rules and the general quality of my opposition's writing, there's barely a chance we'd come out alive IC. I joined NB because it seemed to fit Shay, but after a while, I made some really great friends who found themselves in the faction as well, Mami and Victor being a definite factor into why I wanted to make this place home for 'im.
Then, all the metagaming came into play, and I assumed it was for good enough reason, since the immediate logic was "setting up our defenses," but there was a lot of times I kinda figured everybody was deliberately trying to screw each other over OOC as well. Artefacts came into play, people kept jumping in and out for various reasons, people got quite tense in the discussion thread, and I couldn't help but watch because that's all I could really do without making it worse.
Surely, it wouldn't get too terribly bad, I know we'd never stoop that low, but knowing now there's even the slightest bit of reason for people to burst out OOC within the community is kind of a scary thought, especially with how we've been in the past...
Please, do know I love y'all to bits, partly because this website you all contribute to has gotten me so much better at the thing I like to do for fun, writing. But most importantly, the reason why I stayed, is because you all loved me back, no matter which word you want to use for it, or however way you did it. I just hope you all can do the same for others.
For that, please... Let's use our words for good, not the bad!
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Belle - 11-23-2015
Tom Marvolo Riddle Wrote:I think that its partially because people are comfortable here using other people's characters. Its not such a taboo to play with someone else's property. While I see reasons for allowing such a thing I do think it does act as a sort of gateway. But its not completely responsible or even wholely halfway.
I don't think being able to write other peoples' characters is a factor. I've been doing this kind of RP for, like, a decade now, since Chubbs, and by and large people have been very respectful of each other's characters and time. That's just my experience, though.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Tom Marvolo Riddle - 11-23-2015
Yeah the OOC reasoning thing is what does kill it for me in a lot of respects. The driving force behind characters should be us interpretting how the characters react to a situation, not the other way around. Internal consistency is important. Why is my character in this situation, what would the do to get out of it and why. What is the threshold between the two.
That should on the foremost of every RPer's minds. Yes they may want artefacts, who wouldn't?
Tom likes his trophies but he doesn't even know they exist so unless he happens across someone carrying them and they do something to offend him or show of their precious treasure he won't go after them. He's only in the dunes because Neal is. He's sticking with Neal because his situation and survival depends on it... much to his consternation. Survival comes before pride, even for the Shadow of the Dark Lord's teenage years. Plus Thaal has insulted his sensibilities with not specifically creating an exception for Tom to his 'Join or die' proclamation. Sure Tom knows Thaal most like doesn't know about Tom, but to Tom that's no fracken excuse. You are going to conquer a city you best make preparations for some Dark Lord to be near by who may take offense. Its a sensible precaution. If you don't well then accept the consequences of one pissed off wizard.
I support Sasuke's retreat, there are a number of good reason for him to do so, like his revenge quest against Itachi and keeping hold of his weapons to use against him. It also deprives a potential enemy from getting their hands on in when he's not at his best. Though now? Kind of hard to say but I'll let Sasuke speak for himself in that regard.
Belle Wrote:I'll yield to it then, I'm much more used to the line of, "You can attempt to kill someone but its ultimately up to the character's owner what happens to them" That's the mind set going in that I have in an RP. but for Omniverse I'm making an exception to some degree but I don't quite yet understand it even though I know it. We'll see how it plays out. I do know that in pretty much all RPs I've ever been in something like the Banishment circle would never get past concept stage, let alone be and approved easily accessed plot device for normal members.Tom Marvolo Riddle Wrote:I think that its partially because people are comfortable here using other people's characters. Its not such a taboo to play with someone else's property. While I see reasons for allowing such a thing I do think it does act as a sort of gateway. But its not completely responsible or even wholely halfway.
I don't think being able to write other peoples' characters is a factor. I've been doing this kind of RP for, like, a decade now, since Chubbs, and by and large people have been very respectful of each other's characters and time. That's just my experience, though.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Corporal Light - 11-23-2015
Not even the least bit offended, Guu.
Guu Wrote:I’ve just been so scared about how things have been going lately. The recent base assault on NB scares the hell out of me. The LAW people decided it had to be a surprise attack OOC as much as it was IC and then everyone treats Sasuke like shit for being stressed out that all his storyline plans have been put out to wash because a bunch of other members wanted to ruin everything for funsies. Now the whole thing has become a gigantic unplanned clusterfuck. No wonder people have been forced to drop out from the sheer stress of the thing, abandoning whatever plans they might have had.
Is it bad that I thought LAW had told NB prior that they were going to do this, and it wasn't nearly as sudden as it seemed? Proof of my knowledge on factions.
Though now that you mention it, that's exactly what's been happening: the entire thing is just unorganized. I think that lack of organization might also be playing a part in people leaving the fight, as no one anticipated something like this happening AT ALL. Which honestly shouldn't happen in any circumstance.
Guu Wrote:Not to mention how quick a lot of people are to pull out banishment circles. Some members in the base assault were playing up banishment like it’s just a walk in the park, a fun little adventure, when the only way out can permanently taint your character and future storylines; especially if you’re good aligned. People argue that forcing people to go this route is okay because it makes the story more interesting in their eyes.
Am I allowed to stare at this quote for thirty minutes to admire its brilliance? Because this is damn good thing to be bringing up.
Not pointing fingers, but some people really should really think about the whens, the wheres, and the whoms their banishing. I haven't been banished, but from what I know of the Underverse, it's slowly becoming more of an OOC punishment rather than an IC one. This is especially troubling considering, again, the lack of real care for banishment circles and for their usage.
I'll list my policy as to when banishment should be acceptable
-If the character in question is of high enough level (Basically, any level under 4 is a no-go for banishment.) UNLESS
-If the character in question is the leader of a well-known faction (Say, New Babylon or the Institute.)
-If the character is a sizable threat on his own (Let's say Thaal Sinestro is captured by bandits with banishment circles. Because of his connection with LAW and being a threat on his own, they banish him. This would be okay.)
In my honest opinion, this is how it really should go.
Guu Wrote:That’s the scary thing about this; people are so comfortable with forcing people into things. I’m terrified this might become the standard. I’m scared I’ll forever be questioning the motives of the friends I’ve made on this site, that trying to make a difference as a faction leader will just be an onslaught of constant paranoia and stress as anyone could just take all my work away from me in an instant.
Whatever happened to writing for fun?
Hopefully that part is the result of just being scared and that doesn't become the case. (Then again, I live in a world where Donald Trump is somehow still at the top for presidential nominees, so...)
So yeah. Please heed these words of guidance, for they know more then they seem or something like that.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Thaal Sinestro - 11-23-2015
I think that it's weird that people are shocked and confused that, on a site where literally all the rules are based on PvP, people do PvP?
Like, the people that are considering leaving are considering leaving because people are pitching such a whiny fit over what seems to be almost the entire point of the site.
You ask me why we hit with OOC surprise as well as IC surprise, and, aside from maintaining the actual suspense and realism of a surprise attack, it was done to prevent metagaming. Because metagaming is a real problem, and something we CONTINUE TO FACE through every step of the process. People trying to teleport in that have NOTHING TO DO with the current fight, people trying to include irrelevant details, people trying to break down their artefacts in OM specifically to prevent us from taking them.... just a HUGE amount of metagaming.
As far as banishing goes? Well, it's not my fault that the site doesn't provide a more permanent solution to PvP conflict than "wait 3 days". Do I feel slightly bad that people gotta write 20k words? I mean, YEAH, but it's obvious to me that 3 OOC and IC days is like... not an actual solution to me killing a person. I'd prefer to not have this fight OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Additionally, my character wants these people GONE. There's no recourse for me to take OTHER than banishment. That's not my fault, and I'm not gonna get screwed because there's almost no punishment fo dying.
Yeah, I did a PvP event, and for both IC and OOC reasons, I did a surprise attack. Because of course I did. I AM writing for fun. I'm writing for conflict. I'm writing a villain. I'm sorry that PvP happened, and that somehow existentially horrifies you, but actually, no, I'm not sorry, because if you look at the rules of the site, that's what they're for.
Look at the artefact system. There are limited artefacts. The ONLY WAY to rotate artefacts is to TAKE THEM from people. That’s it. There’s no activity requirement. There’s no way to use them in any other way. The artifact system was designed, in intent and in mechanics, as a PvP incentive. We all know that Greg doesn’t want more Artefacts on the site, and you know what that means? Well, either the people that have them keep them forever, or somebody else takes them by way of violence. Those are your options. Or I guess they circulate between friends who elect to give them to each other? Either way, basically the same thing.
Every single aspect of the site is focused on PvP. All of them. Every item, every moderation. So, without combat… why do all of these rules exist? Why do they matter?
What happened to writing for fun? I was trying to write for fun, until I realized that some members of the fight would, essentially, panic at the concept of defeat. So don’t worry Guu, I won’t be attacking you, or anyone else for that matter, probably ever again. Because, despite the PvP focus in the ruleset? The amount of OOC drama and bullshit just isn’t worth it. For what it’s worth, what started out as a fun event for my friends and me has left me considering leaving the site too, just based off of what I perceive as awful attitudes.
If Okor beats me in this fight? Awesome. If Deadpool and Retane come and curbstomp Sinestro after this is all over? I’m not gonna cry about it. Because that’s what the literal point of the system is.
Sometimes, you lose.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Schwi Dola - 11-23-2015
You make extreme light of it to say it's 'just' 20k words, Thaal.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Thaal Sinestro - 11-23-2015
Quote:Do I feel slightly bad that people gotta write 20k words? I mean, YEAHwhoa it's like I didn't even say that
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Thaal Sinestro - 11-23-2015
It's almost as if... you took it out of context intentionally?
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Guu - 11-23-2015
Okay, a couple points towards Thaal.
-You tried to stop metagaming by metagaming yourself, and because of that, you caused the very thing you're complaining about. All the examples you listed happened after you started it. They're only doing it because this surprise attack has left them desperate to do anything to save what they've been working so hard for. How did you think people would react?
-Your rant proves many of my points. You care more about your own fun than you do others. Ever even considered if New Babylon was even having fun through this whole mess? Did that even matter to you?
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Kopaka - 11-23-2015
My old RP site had problems with a lack of communication. It was hyper competitive and exclusionary, and while I think it's nice for Factions to have their own places on the forums to organize and discuss, I personally find the fact that they're pricate forums to be a hundrance.
On some level, planning things in secret for a PbP forum can be fun because surprise plot twists and stuff are just as much fun to pull here as they are eveywhere else. I dob't know that Law's intention on surprise attacking NB was to catch them off guard OOC or fot hype training, but in my book it is bad manners.
At the same time, I'm pretty sure this is the first major faction fight on the site, so mistakes are going to be made. The thing is, in the same way that we need to avoid OOC thinking coloring IC actions, we need to also avoid IC context changing how we treat each other OOC. Just because our characters hate eachother doesn't mean we have to treat each other as enemies in our planning and coordinating.
Now, I think high stakes and competitive writing are fun, definitely. I just don't think we need to throw each other under the bus to win, and maybe people can self examine and realize they're not being as good a sports as they might think, myself included. In that regard, I apologize if my experience with hyper-competitive RP has altered my actions in a negative context.
Ever since I first got my double bounty, I have known that Nealaphh was a banishment target, so I've had a long time to come to terms with banishment and what it might mean for it. For other people, though, I think having yourself suddenly sent packing to the Underverse for no real specific reason could be very discouraging and traumatic. I think maybe this is less a problem with the IC decisions for banishment and more the OOC repercussions.
What Tom said about forcing characters into certain story lines throws the inherent OOC for being banished into a very clear light. It's definitely good that the Omniverse has a 'fate worse than death' component to really encourage troublesome Primes (such as Nealaphh) into considering caution and the outcomes of their choices. On the flip side, though I plan to use Diablo's 'enslavement' to Nealaphh's advantage (as usual), this isn't an option for all characters.
I think there NEEDS to be an alternative to getting out of the Underverse instead of only being able to become Diablo's bitch. For me, a simple fix would be to make the Diablo route an easy shortcut to get out, a deal with the devil as it were. On the other hand, writers could maintain their Primes' freedom, but have to write twice as many words in exchange, hell, even three times as many. I think 120,000 words is a daunting enough challenge to reinforce an aversion to banishment while still giving writers a chance to gamble maintain their sovereignty.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Schwi Dola - 11-23-2015
Thaal Sinestro Wrote:It's almost as if... you took it out of context intentionally?
No, it's that you don't mention that in those 20k - 40k words (20k is the minimum... and meaning it takes exceptional story to do it ) your character has to be or turn evil.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Roger Smith - 11-23-2015
Desco Wrote:Thaal Sinestro Wrote:It's almost as if... you took it out of context intentionally?
No, it's that you don't mention that in those 20k - 40k words (20k is the minimum... and meaning it takes exceptional story to do it ) your character has to be or turn evil.
You're entirely wrong in that line of thinking, I just want to say.
Sadly I have nothing to really contribute to the discussion at hand at the moment, but when I gather my thoughts I may have something more constructive to say.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Schwi Dola - 11-23-2015
The only quest is to side with Diablo.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Proto Man - 11-23-2015
Nothing in the quest description says that.
Nothing.
And it's genuinely frustrating at this point. Maybe it's not the Underverse that's stifling? Maybe it's that people look at vague phrases and try to bludgeon them into literal facts and statements.
This topic is about Guu addressing some of her concerns. I'm not going to sit through another discussion about the Underverse when all of zero people have actually bothered to complete the quest. I'm done.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Guu - 11-23-2015
Also, I know I mentioned it in the OP, but please move any more discussion about underverse and banishment to the appropriate topic for consistency: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://omniverse-rpg.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=4666">viewtopic.php?f=28&t=4666</a><!-- l -->
I mostly mentioned it in my original post as it was on my mind. Everything else I've mentioned is still open to discussion here.
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Gildarts - 11-23-2015
Nealaphh I thought what you said about consequence was beautiful and wonderfully insightful :,D *wipes away tear* <3
Re: I need to get this off my chest... - Schwi Dola - 11-24-2015
Well, Pvp has been there since the start. But there's only two ways to force pvp listed in the rules and those are Bounty and Base Assault. Maybe there's more.
I don't know what to add other than that Guu. Ambrosia is always at risk of an assault even when you are in the middle of a story elsewhere.