04-06-2018, 09:57 AM
Mulling over everything, the main point raised in Luci's thread was "Phasing is a Power, with its own up-sides and downsides that are independent of the balancing criteria for moves." (Quote from Ghidorah, but other mods said similar things)
I'd disagree. That power influences the general balance of moves, even if it, itself, is balanced.
A comparable example would be Dota. Or Smite. Or any other MOBA. If they give someone a new ability, or make a new character. They need to consider how it will work with everything else. It being balanced independently of everything else can really skew the game once it's shoved in. If there's a power for physical immunity, why isn't there one for elemental immunity (but with physical vulnerability)? Which does, subtly, influence the balance of moves somewhat - either meaning elemental/energy attacks should be a little weaker since they can hit phasing people. Since, at the moment, an elemental/energy attack has the objective bonus of being able to hit someone who's phasing.
My Conclusion: All the phasing power lets you do is walk through walls. Being vulnerable to one "damage type" is the same as being vulnerable to all damage types in the OV, especially when there's no similar power-based counter for elemental ones (there would be no drawback to me taking any non-energy move and turning it into one). Alternatively, increase the fatigue drain and buff phasing to let someone be invulnerable to all attacks that can pass through them (I'm not saying there shouldn't be a subset of moves that can hit phasing people, but they should be clearly indicated inside the move when it's being approved to prevent confusion. Or well defined). Or maybe both. As Omni said, it's not an "action now" place, but my suggestion would be something like this (but probably rewritten):
[spoiler]I'm not saying we should get both of these, or use these suggested costs, but I think changing phasing to either be one or the other or both would definitely suit most people who dislike the way phasing is now. And, personally, I think they look fairer.
Phasing - Basic – 800 OM
With this power, a character may render all or part of their body incorporeal. While in this form you will be partially transparent (other characters can tell the difference, basically). While in this incorporeal energy form, you may pass through objects but not attacks. You are also unable to attack. It takes a few moments of concentration to activate dependent on your SPD. For example, a SPD of 0 would take a couple of seconds to activate, whereas a SPD of 10+ would be almost instantaneous. While you cannot attack, phasing can still be a very useful power for trying to escape or reach a more advantageous position. This power allows the creation of moves that pass through shields and other boundaries as if they aren't there. In addition, staying in a phased state slowly fatigues the user and will eventually cause them to pass out if maintained for a very long time. The level of fatigue increases slightly when inside walls and other objects.
This has a reduced cost to normal phasing, as it only lets you walk through walls. I added in the comment about "attacks going through shields" because that's a general precedent I've seen used for similar moves like that, and it explicitly states another use for the power. The mention of getting tired by spending time in walls is more fluff than anything else, but it fits something I added to the 'advanced' version.
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Phasing - Advanced – 1500 OM (700 OM if upgrading from Basic)
The advanced version of phasing also allows a character to phase through attacks while incorporeal. However, you also suffer a wave of fatigue for every attack that passes through you, so while this does make phasing much more useful and nearly invulnerable to damage, this is limited and more suited to assist repositioning and escaping rather than tanking attacks. Be wary, as you will only be immune to attacks that need to touch or hit you (like bullets and explosions). People can still use telepathy on you, and so on, potentially offering a few options of damage. Avoiding a super attack with phasing will require a super defence.
This has an increased cost to normal phasing, as it provides immunity to lightsabers and swords and fireballs and bullets and so on. All attacks. As a further method of balance, I added in a mention that attacks going through someone who's phasing make them get tired. In the original power, it says someone can stay phasing for "a very long time" until they pass out. This being added should make someone feel less hopeless against someone they can't hit, and provide a benefit to actually aiming at someone who's incorporeal. The latter comment about telepathy is just a suggestion for a way that could still damage someone who's phasing. Tearen had a move that just needed eye contact to work. I have one for Dane (which I need to buy). I'm sure there would be other ways to hit someone who's phasing, but having it be based around a certain set of powers rather than a type of attack (when attack types aren't meant to give an advantage) makes more sense. Alternatively, I guess someone with phasing could get a phasing move that only hurts phasing people. I added the mention of super defences since the teleportation power also says that.[/spoiler]
Just some food for thought. I'm not a fan of saying "this sucks, it needs changing" (but, in nicer words with reasoning added) without providing a potential solution. Even if that 'solution' might not be needed (at least, from some opinions - I'd vouch for it, obviously). Can I ask that we don't get a bombardment of replies amounting to 'we should totally use Dane's idea', if you're not adding to it. This thread is for discussion, not petitions.
I'd disagree. That power influences the general balance of moves, even if it, itself, is balanced.
A comparable example would be Dota. Or Smite. Or any other MOBA. If they give someone a new ability, or make a new character. They need to consider how it will work with everything else. It being balanced independently of everything else can really skew the game once it's shoved in. If there's a power for physical immunity, why isn't there one for elemental immunity (but with physical vulnerability)? Which does, subtly, influence the balance of moves somewhat - either meaning elemental/energy attacks should be a little weaker since they can hit phasing people. Since, at the moment, an elemental/energy attack has the objective bonus of being able to hit someone who's phasing.
My Conclusion: All the phasing power lets you do is walk through walls. Being vulnerable to one "damage type" is the same as being vulnerable to all damage types in the OV, especially when there's no similar power-based counter for elemental ones (there would be no drawback to me taking any non-energy move and turning it into one). Alternatively, increase the fatigue drain and buff phasing to let someone be invulnerable to all attacks that can pass through them (I'm not saying there shouldn't be a subset of moves that can hit phasing people, but they should be clearly indicated inside the move when it's being approved to prevent confusion. Or well defined). Or maybe both. As Omni said, it's not an "action now" place, but my suggestion would be something like this (but probably rewritten):
[spoiler]I'm not saying we should get both of these, or use these suggested costs, but I think changing phasing to either be one or the other or both would definitely suit most people who dislike the way phasing is now. And, personally, I think they look fairer.
Phasing - Basic – 800 OM
With this power, a character may render all or part of their body incorporeal. While in this form you will be partially transparent (other characters can tell the difference, basically). While in this incorporeal energy form, you may pass through objects but not attacks. You are also unable to attack. It takes a few moments of concentration to activate dependent on your SPD. For example, a SPD of 0 would take a couple of seconds to activate, whereas a SPD of 10+ would be almost instantaneous. While you cannot attack, phasing can still be a very useful power for trying to escape or reach a more advantageous position. This power allows the creation of moves that pass through shields and other boundaries as if they aren't there. In addition, staying in a phased state slowly fatigues the user and will eventually cause them to pass out if maintained for a very long time. The level of fatigue increases slightly when inside walls and other objects.
This has a reduced cost to normal phasing, as it only lets you walk through walls. I added in the comment about "attacks going through shields" because that's a general precedent I've seen used for similar moves like that, and it explicitly states another use for the power. The mention of getting tired by spending time in walls is more fluff than anything else, but it fits something I added to the 'advanced' version.
---
Phasing - Advanced – 1500 OM (700 OM if upgrading from Basic)
The advanced version of phasing also allows a character to phase through attacks while incorporeal. However, you also suffer a wave of fatigue for every attack that passes through you, so while this does make phasing much more useful and nearly invulnerable to damage, this is limited and more suited to assist repositioning and escaping rather than tanking attacks. Be wary, as you will only be immune to attacks that need to touch or hit you (like bullets and explosions). People can still use telepathy on you, and so on, potentially offering a few options of damage. Avoiding a super attack with phasing will require a super defence.
This has an increased cost to normal phasing, as it provides immunity to lightsabers and swords and fireballs and bullets and so on. All attacks. As a further method of balance, I added in a mention that attacks going through someone who's phasing make them get tired. In the original power, it says someone can stay phasing for "a very long time" until they pass out. This being added should make someone feel less hopeless against someone they can't hit, and provide a benefit to actually aiming at someone who's incorporeal. The latter comment about telepathy is just a suggestion for a way that could still damage someone who's phasing. Tearen had a move that just needed eye contact to work. I have one for Dane (which I need to buy). I'm sure there would be other ways to hit someone who's phasing, but having it be based around a certain set of powers rather than a type of attack (when attack types aren't meant to give an advantage) makes more sense. Alternatively, I guess someone with phasing could get a phasing move that only hurts phasing people. I added the mention of super defences since the teleportation power also says that.[/spoiler]
Just some food for thought. I'm not a fan of saying "this sucks, it needs changing" (but, in nicer words with reasoning added) without providing a potential solution. Even if that 'solution' might not be needed (at least, from some opinions - I'd vouch for it, obviously). Can I ask that we don't get a bombardment of replies amounting to 'we should totally use Dane's idea', if you're not adding to it. This thread is for discussion, not petitions.