I'm the problem/Quitting

[Centurion]

Honestly, I totally see where you're coming from Gunther I'm not a particularly long-time member of the site and i can't claim to know more about running this kind of thing than the staff. That would be arrogant of me. However, especially in this last message I absolutely understand your perspective. Funnily enough, Tank/Support is also my favorite role to play in most any game where it's possible to do so. Defending my allies, keeping them in the fight, being their shield, that's the good stuff. I also get your interest in complexity. I have spent hours in the past doing research on topics so that my characters can have a reasonably believable scientific or at least logical method to their madness. Integrating complex ideas into abilities is the best because it stretches your own imagination and also forces more careful and skilled play so an ability is not misused or wasted.

I'm not here to take sides or anything, I just want to express that you're not the only person who likes delving into the statistics, effects, and lore behind a move. I would write paragraphs detailing why an ability exists if I was told to do so. Maybe you can try keeping the complexity to your descriptions instead of the effects? Or maybe the statistics system of the OV could use some adjustments? I wouldn't be able to say for sure. I know that when I was cycling through the numbered stats I personally felt the descriptions lacked. This comes from someone who assigns very specific limitations, boundaries, and statistics to his characters. If my guy can lift 25 tons, I look up objects to ensure he can lift them without just making it up on the spot. The powers and proficiency system is really cool as it reminds me a bit of a skill tree. Overall I think the OV has a lot of potential for complex abilities and statistics, but it just hasn't been given a chance? Just some stuff to think about, my own two cents.

I'm sorry to hear you're leaving and I wish you the best in whatever you do and wherever you go! Good luck in game design. Your descriptions here tell me you have plenty of great ideas that can be implemented well in an MMO. Who knows, maybe this will inspire an audit of the OV's current statistics and Omniphysics system. Whatever the case, I give you kudos for your honesty.

[Ebonywood Hellscythe]

No. Your moves didn't come across as too complex to me - although your use of game terminology and insistence on using a sheet with key terms threw me off. Tearen does whacky stuff all the time. But, as mentioned in chat (don't know if you saw), you write your moves as moves in a game. Not as something for your character to do an use in a roleplay, but something to help you, as a player, win fights. Essentially, it often seems like you're trying to get as much as you could for the bare minimum, which is probably what led to some problems.

Example where you basically admitted that:

I agree 5 minutes was a long duration, and I was not expecting to get all of that

Yet you asked for all 5 minutes. You pushed your gamers intuition to try and find the upper bound rather than taking a number you thought was sensible.

Gunther taking damage isn't a drawback from your "I take damage from other people" thing. It's a perk due to your higher DEF. Heck, I'd take the 40 second offer for Ebony, and she only has 3 DEF. I'd make cosmetic changes to the move, and it might not quite fit her just yet (because she'd be too scared to use it willingly), but it's definitely strong.

The 5 second charge means you have to set up opportunities to use the move, and that's only a problem since you seem to plan to use it almost non-stop. If you made Stein have to concentrate to keep it running, or made him take increased damage, or something, you might get it to last longer.

Anyway, to reiterate, you're not playing the game. You're spending too long on the character creation screen trying to minmax. I can relate, after rerolling stats 100s of times on Baldur's gate. But you've been on that screen long enough dude. Complexity is just a small part of the main problem, imo. It's how you're treating this all.

My Elemental Blast move got up to 3000 OM in cost (sorry for that Jade). I like fancy moves that are out there (even if, personally, I don't actually think my moves are that complicated, just big).

In short: Just write moves for your character rather than yourself.

[Centurion]

In short: Just write moves for your character rather than yourself.

Agreed!!!

[Omni]

Lemme sum up my points in bullet points. I'm going to have to be brief, because I don't think anyone is going to read a wall of text.

-Key point: If you can't state a complex thing in relatively simple terms, you don't understand it well enough.
-Most moves get rejected because they're unbalanced or badly explained, not because they're too complex.
-Most moves that get approved but take a long time to approve do so because they're complex and/or they're initially unbalanced or badly explained (see above).
-You can do what you want to do, as proven by the MMO example I posted. But that was far far weaker than the version Gunther posted. A game like FFXIV is a good measure of balance, because it's usually been iterated on for years by large teams and communities of people.
-If you don't have the capacity to balance complex moves yourself, you shouldn't try to make complex moves, because it puts the onus on staff members to balance the moves, and ...
-We have limited staffers who each have limited time, and not all of whom are great at handling complex moves.
-But if you can write a concept simply, and balance it, it will get approved. Tearen is a great example of this. It might take a little longer if it's a precedent-setter, since the staff will have to come to me to ask "is this concept/mechanic okay?" - but the staff members should at least clearly understand how the move works, perhaps stray of a few spare details, and it shouldn't require massive change.
-If you can't do that, it won't get approved and both you and staff will become frustrated. This helps nobody, hence my advice: stick to simple moves and enjoy the roleplay.

As an aside, as far as I know, there are no other active play-by-post roleplaying sites out there that let you build your own moves with the level of freedom we do, without eschewing numbers entirely and going full freeform. This is deliberate: I made it because it didn't exist.

[Takanomiya Hijiri]

I don't think anyone is going to read a wall of text.

I know I would. I may not have been posting here constantly, but I've been keeping up to date with this thread and have actually been really enjoying finding out everyone's thoughts and opinions on the subject of moves.

-If you don't have the capacity to balance complex moves yourself, you shouldn't try to make complex moves, because it puts the onus on staff members to balance the moves,

*whistles innocently*

Can't say I'd ever do anything like that...

[Ebonywood Hellscythe]

I agree with you Omni, but I'd like to say one thing.

A game like FFXIV is a good measure of balance, because it's usually been iterated on for years by large teams and communities of people.

It's a good measure of balance for that particular game system. That doesn't mean it would be balanced here, especially since the one there relies on a cooldown for the drawback - but here, that's not really a thing.

Some FFXIV moves might be OP here, others would be weak. It varies. For an MMO that might be a good example of a balanced move, but even then, different MMOs have different metas. So for anyone unfamiliar with FFXIV, I can't really say that move would make a good comparison to anything in the OV. Maybe as a vague baseline, I guess.

[Oleander]

Key point: If you can't state a complex thing in relatively simple terms, you don't understand it well enough.

I can state it in simple terms, its not my understanding of a topic that's being questioned when creating a move, its expressing it to others. I can tell you electron tunneling is just when an electron seemingly "appears" on the other side of an obstacle, but you don't know how or why just that it happens.

Example where you basically admitted that:

I agree 5 minutes was a long duration, and I was not expecting to get all of that

Yet you asked for all 5 minutes. You pushed your gamers intuition to try and find the upper bound rather than taking a number you thought was sensible.

I'll agree, that was wrong on my part. I was expecting more than I should have, either a meet in the middle or offering of downsides. The problem of complexity and "wall of text" bit came up again when I tried to word a way to maintain it for even 2 minutes (little over double the suggested time) by taking extra damage and concentration/fatigue. Rewrote the move three times, but each time it sounded more complex than I wanted it to be (than I knew what others wanted it to be.) Running on imagionary concentration and fatigue systems that aren't even in the rules...

I mean I could give it fodder. 5 Fatigue per round... rate your moves on how much fatigue thye cost. Alright, 1 Fatigue to maintain this effect, 3 to cast this new ability - great! Go for it. Concentration; 3 per round "Minor, Moderate and Major." Can't have more than 3 concentration, so 1 to maintain, 2 to use other moves. Great!

Yea, you can fodder a little over this to account for "pushing beyond the limits" but essentially it offers a foundation and gives the imagionary "fatigue" and "concentration" system some sort of meaning and quantifiable downside.

Fatigue can increase with Defense and Concentration can scale with Technique, because that's what Tec seems to be, a mental power and muscle memory - which explains just about all applications of Technique. The number can still be an imagionary guideline, but instead I don't know how important Fatigue or Concentration are, unlike Damage - which is capped at 20, with no upgrades or amendments.




I admit I rushed that last move, I didn't think about taking damage being a perk with high defense, and it didn't immediately occur to me to incorperate a defense debuff to make it more tangible. Even when I did, and started looking through other downsides to maintain it, it added complexity.

It always adds complexity. If its not an attack, its complex. I wanted to make a grappling hook... Just... a grappling hook... and in Move Workshop I had to amend it several times because of the rope that was just a magical fodder had to be explained. The gauntlet was supposed to be a weak armor, but I tried to keep it simple to no avail.

Ziyada had clones that appeared, looked like him, then ran away or ran distractions, but that move quickly became overly complex because I was told to compare without comparing, essentially. Offer ways to beat it, but don't make them too obvious or acute.

As an aside, as far as I know, there are no other active play-by-post roleplaying sites out there that let you build your own moves with the level of freedom we do, without eschewing numbers entirely and going full freeform. This is deliberate: I made it because it didn't exist.

I'm well aware of this. I even tried to make one back in 2010, but quickly figured out I couldn't afford it. Make no mistake, I'm not bashing you or the roleplayers here, I'm just saying that Omniverse is not the place for me, because I chose to look at it more from the gamer's aspect, and a literal sense than as a writer who uses the system more as a guideline than an actual gauge.




The fact that so many people took an interest is surprising. I can't tell if I've just started drama; if people are actively trying to correct my view so I'd stay; if people just want to voice their opinions on how wrong I am; or if people just think I'm bashing Omniverse as a whole and want to rectify that AKA drama again... To the last one, I put this in the help desk more to the intent of an exit and an apology/parting ways than a topic of discussion.

If I'm just feeding the beast, I'm not actively trying to be a troll or anything, I've stated a bunch of times now that I'm the one in the wrong. I've made the staff's work difficult, and with what I thought would be a one-post, mostly ignored apology, continued to do so.

A few can see from my perspective and understand why I'm parting ways. As a hopeful game developer and a love of complexity that is real-world physics, martial arts, and mythology (any magical resource) I'm just not able to get a solid grasp the idea and/or function of Omniverse's RPG mechanics that aren't actually RPG mechanics. It's less of a Roleplay Game, more of a Roleplay Guideline I suppose... and one I find using mechanics that are incomplete. If Concentration and Fatigue are downsides... then maybe explain what they are, if they can be expanded upon, and maybe incorperate something that .... and complexity builds from there. But that's where my mind goes.

[Alex]

I think people just tend to forget that the Omniverse is designed as a writing website with RPG elements, rather than a play-by-post MMO video game.

I also believe that maybe I've just grown old and crotchety and believe that people uses Moves as a crutch for their characters in lieu of proper character development. My students call me old because I still don't understand the appeal of Instagram, so maybe I'm just out of times.

Sorry to see you go, but it seems like this is something that has affected you on too deep a level to resolve, and for that, I'm sorry to see you depart the community. I hope you'll continue to come back and read, because we have plenty of excellent writers lurking in the haze.

[Oleander]

I'm still reading, and maybe I'll joke around in chat later down the road. For now though, I'm sort of lurking in there, trying to avoid this spilling over... Its easy to avoid a single thread, not so easy to avoid the chat that so many people enjoy when they have time. As mentioned earlier in this post, it seems to have done so anyway, without my presence...

Character development is awesome. I actually wanted Stein to work towards regaining his former glory, he hasn't even used his Comet shield because IC he hasn't redeveloped the technique. More complex moves would have taken a LOT longer to rediscover in character through active work. Fewer moves, longer development... and then if Stein had ever found a need to be more offensive, he would have had a whole new arc of learning foreign techniques that involved dealing damage as a primary role.

Complexity breeds contemplation.

[Morene Fellon]

I know this thread is kind of dead now but, I need to add in my two cents in regards to the Omniverse favoring offense, uh

okay so Morene has 3 points in defense and that allowed me to tank like two tier 2 supermoves in a single thread without dying, and in regards to my OG boy Shay Cormac-- who still has a defense stat of 3,-- I almost whooped the fuck outta Enel with him, who we all know, does nothing but shove points into attack like some pissed off DBZ character hyped up on 5 gallons of Red Bull

I just lost that last fight mentioned because I didn't take advantage of the fact I could have honest to Omni traded the fucker to death





in other words, I didn't write well enough  :husky:

[Morene Fellon]

ignore this post

[Revan Noctis]

Seems cool to me. I for one enjoy writing on this site but was curious what your problems were. I think that for me moves are less important than the writing and character development. We shall see if I design Moreno defensive moves in the future myself.

[Omni]

Stuff

Man, don't even worry about it. Like I said, I've got 0 problem with you and you're more than welcome to voice your opinions on the system's downsides.

Fatigue I could probably elaborate on a little more. It's all a balance of keeping the site accessible to those folks who don't necessarily see, or want to see, the site in such a detailed way. There are always going to be folks who prefer extremes to either end, the Omniverse is a unique case of trying to meet in the middle.

I moved this to Whateververse because it's more appropriate.

[Oleander]

Concentration is pretty straight forward and is an infinite resource over time, but momentary finite. Common sense dictates how much you can concentrate on... a few small things or one major thing. Pure and simple... It is still a little obscure, but in the "Move Balance" rulepage it can be summed up in perfect detail in a single paragraph.

Fatigue... Chalk this one up to Handwavium. There's no real upper limit, no penalty for spamming your three dozen attacks past exhaustion... One day you fight like a Spartan war veteran, the next you run like an out of shape asthmatic. Just stick a ghost number here and a little range of fatigue cost severity as if it were a stat. Cap could be static or scaling. Regain a little per round...

Not like I'm saying wedge in a fifth Endurance stat and up the base Stat points to 12 - while that's what I would do, I have a feeling I'd be supporting that update alone.

[Ebonywood Hellscythe]

@Stein:

There's no real upper limit, no penalty for spamming your three dozen attacks past exhaustion...

I can't say the same for everyone else, but if I'm grading a fight and someone writes their character as if the fatigue effects of their moves aren't happening, I do deduct points when scoring. Not sticking with your downsides, even if "fodder", ain't gonna win you any fights.

[Blink]

Good luck either way, dude.

[Handsome Jack]

We have an Endurance Stat. It's called SP.

[Omni]

Concentration is pretty straight forward and is an infinite resource over time, but momentary finite. Common sense dictates how much you can concentrate on... a few small things or one major thing. Pure and simple... It is still a little obscure, but in the "Move Balance" rulepage it can be summed up in perfect detail in a single paragraph.

Fatigue... Chalk this one up to Handwavium. There's no real upper limit, no penalty for spamming your three dozen attacks past exhaustion... One day you fight like a Spartan war veteran, the next you run like an out of shape asthmatic. Just stick a ghost number here and a little range of fatigue cost severity as if it were a stat. Cap could be static or scaling. Regain a little per round...

Not like I'm saying wedge in a fifth Endurance stat and up the base Stat points to 12 - while that's what I would do, I have a feeling I'd be supporting that update alone.

This has occured to me, but Ebony basically states the solution here.

In Game Design, an important aspect is "does this add anything to the game?" In this case, for most players it would add needless complexity and an extra thing to keep track of. It would take us further down the road to numbers-based RPG, which would limit roleplaying freedom. Basically it would be the incorrect design choice for this specific game.

This system was a deliberate result of cutting down more complex systems that I had initially made, because they were too stifling and rigid for a writing environment, in my opinion.

Edit: I thought I'd explained Fatigue as we do it somewhere on the site, but I don't think I ever did it properly, so I added a description to the stats page. Long overdue, tbh. I added Focus in as well, because why not?