I'm the problem/Quitting

[Oleander]

As time progresses, I'm starting to see more and more issues with the Omniverse. Things that individually would have me only disgruntled, but as they pile up I'm... honestly quite fed up with it...

That being said, it seems I'm the only one who sees these issues, which officially makes me the problem, not the site. Site is fine for those who like it, and I'm just the one trying to be a pretty little snowflake and getting huffy when I don't get my way.

In truth, I don't understand it. I really don't. The powers and proficiencies are simple enough, but trying to get a move approved is like sawing off a leg. Stats make it even more complicated, because no one seems to know what they mean. 

I was tempted to write a real shitfest as my parting words, complete with a list of Omniverse's issues, full of snark, but thought better of it. It might've got me banned. I still plan to swing around to read some threads, even if I can't write.

I would like to apologize to the people I've vented to, no doubt annoying quite a few people with ignorance and bullheadedness. 


Anyway... I'd like to have my rosters (Gunther Stein and Ziyada) removed and Stein's thread nixed from the Accolade nominations. Omni can change his avatar/title to the next request in line.

[Revan Noctis]

What in the blazes is this?
Is this just cause you’re trying to make OP moves that aren’t allowed?

[Takanomiya Hijiri]

Aw, man, I'm sorry to hear that.
There's really no chance you'll change your mind and stick around then?  :poop:

I hope you're able to find some other site you like.

[Oleander]

The only possible OP thing is the 5 minute duration, but that just meant more punishment Stein has to endure to keep it up.. That move, in a situation where its useful, is almost a death sentence. I won't deny this is one of the issues, but its more that I don't understand why it would be OP with as many ways as it would kill Stein.

While that move is one issue, I've had the recurring issue with moves of all sorts, and its not always that they're OP. At one point they were too specific. Too wordy. Downsides aren't actual downsides accepted by Omniphysics, so the downsides were just fodder. Move was too weak. Moves denied because, to the reviewer, they seemed pointless. Its an uphill battle to understand Moves in their absolute vague/specific superposition.

You call it OP, and immediately assume I'm quitting because I'm not super powerful, I say its a martyr move that guarentees death. I see it one way, everyone sees it another, so like I said that means the issue is with me.

As I mentioned, I could go on a rampage listing all the little things that are pushing me away, but I'd end up being very snotty and sarcastic while the can of worms is still open and fresh. I'd prefer not to be banned, there's a lot I haven't caught up on.

[Oleander]

The only way I could pheasably stay is if I just have a character avoid all fights and avoid the RPG aspect entirely, which is where I seem to be getting hung up. Sorry Hijiri. Omniverse-RPG isn't RPG enough, and its too structured for free form. I just can't find a happy balance.

[Revan Noctis]

Do you mind posting one or two of these unapproved moves here then? I’m curious and knowing why they arent allowed could be useful to me.

[Oleander]

For starters, I had a heck of a time getting "Deep Cuts" and "Shallow Cuts" approved for Shinmen, even though they were effectively two different moves, with different downsides, debuffs, damage types, et cetera. People kept leaping at the "Its a katana. Its still a katana." I had to reword it a half dozen times to distinguish what was fodder from mechanics, such as Shallow Cuts was 1h, and Deep Cuts was 2h. That was supposed to be fodder, but it kept being misconstrued as mechanics. Ziyadah had a few complications with his clones as well... even though they were meant only for distractions, with 0 attacks.

The clone thing kind of links to the "no turtling" rule. Had they been mindless attackers, it might have gone through easier, but because they were illusions meant to prolong a fight, they took a lot more effort.

Essentially... Omniverse is about brevity. I've yet to see an attack turned down because an attack move takes advantage of a high attack stat. Defense and Technique, on the other hand, get crapped on in this regards. Don't use them to your advantage, defense should be a dump stat so you can have tank moves that don't end up too OP (what I like to call overly specialized.)

[Revan Noctis]

So you seem to be suggesting attack is usually the only stat that matters and pure offensive moves based on the attack stat are more likely to get approved as opposed to defensive moves?

[Oleander]

From what I've experience, pretty much. Aang's attacks, even those with debuffs, were approved faster than Stein's Palm Shields, which are literally just small shields that rest on his palms. The Pummeling Gale, which had a crazy arc, could knock a foe left and right, upwards and even down into the ground, spamming to keep them pinned, was easier to approve than a tiny little shield.

Note this; as Aang, a pacifist, I could pummel you into the ground with only "stamina" holding me back, but as Stein a Support, I can't take damage in your place with a set limit of damage I can possibly take. Omniverse favors offense. You can have a million attacks, but try to get three shields and people are asking why...

[Revan Noctis]

Hmm seems a bit odd.

[13-Jzall]

I think that you need to calm down a bit and come back tomorrow, see how you feel then.

[Oleander]

Agreed... I said I wasn't going to, but... I lied... here's a little rant about the futility of a Defense build...

Picking apart Omniphysics:
Physical Strength and Ranged - both 1000 OM each, and feature primarily attacks.
Area Attack - 600 OM.
Area Defense - 400 OM. Right here we set the par that defense is less valuable than attacks.
Ranged Materialize - 600 OM, both offensive and defensive suggestions, but can greately reduce the TEC needed to land an attack...
Remote Control - 600 OM, miss your attack, use RC to bring it back for a second go!
Homing - 600 OM because who needs aim? 5+ Attack and a make believe stamina bar.
Buff - 400 OM ... wait for it...
Debuff - 1000 OM. Over twice the value. Should mean Buffs should be a dime a dozen, but sadly I've been looking through a lot of them and they all seem underwhelming compared to the attacks around them.

From Proficiencies alone it would seem so much cheaper to be a tank than DPS. What I see is that Omniphysics values damage over defense. There are ample ways to subvert Technique for aim in proficiencies alone...




Powers:
Movement Powers get their own slot. Speed is given value by being the only stat in the "RPG" to have a built in doubling system. Doesn't really matter since no one really agrees on how Speed works versus Technique, am I right? Move faster than they can react, reducing the need for Tec, so now you have very low need for Tec. 6/0/6/0 = Flash Punch with Burst Movement. Can you beat a 12 speed with 5 Technique? Stats argue that no. No you cannot. With proper downsides, the Flash Punch can become a proper, almost unblockable move - without being a super move. Can we say "Infinite Mass Punch?"

Master Acrobat - it mentions defending, but also Attacking... mutually shared for a measly 400 OM. This might be arguably more for flashy attacks, or evasion....

Physical Manipulation:
Elasticity; a lot of offensive roles...
Malleability; upgraded Elasticity to gain the true Defensive properties. Value in defense? +600 gives back a little of the tanky feel. Then again... guess what this does? Increase the size of a fist. Based on speed. Infinite Mass Punch is now an AoE with reach. Used defensively, its NOT governed by DEF, but again by SPD... so, defense gets no bonus from this.

Growth/Shrink Both mention a penalty to speed, and you are now a bigger target. But now everything has a natural reach for Growth, or Antman difficulty to hit for Shrink with all the punch of a little infinite mass bullet!

Intigration 1000 OM... Stone skin is suggested, but since we all know Elemental effects aren't a thing, this is essentially the same as any ablative armor as a move, and is superfluous. It mentions vulnerabilities - but from asking in QQ, these are fodder - not downsides... Again, a 1000 chunk of OM that acts as fodder. At lest Master acrobat let me run up walls.

Mimic: 2800 OM, See a defensive tecnique? Nice, copy it! See an attack technique? Wait for a better one. There's got to be a better one. There's always a better one.

Hive Mind: 400 If your Defense fails, at least you can choke someone with yoru severed arm. Doesn't boost defense...

Disassemble: Governed by speed, but it does add a bonus resistance to some damage types... Sadly, with almost 70% of moves approved being some form of attack, good luck finding that one opponent who just focuses on Blunt or Piercing (not slashing.)

Phasing: This one tries very poorly to outright nix Defense, except when it comes to Energy attacks - which are a dime a dozen. Also governed by speed.


Sensory Powers:
Foresight: This one is FINALLY a great defense! Wait... Speedy and skillful - IE SPD and TEC. For those of you who already thought DEF was out rated...

Telapathy: Technique, good luck trying to get this to work in a fight... No mind control for PC Primes - which... is arguably what the best thing about Telepathy is...


Subterfuge:
Technique, technique, technique. Defensive, possibly, but not directly.


Spacial Manipulation:
Telekinesis: Attack and MAYBE technique.

Teleportation: Speed, obviously... but difficult as shit in battle.


Time Manipulation: I... don't know how to register this. Both, maybe? Definitely 80% fodder.



Survival Powers:
YES The Defense capital of the list!

Aaaand the Healing does crap inside of battle. It can potentially end DoT effects, but even that is very under explained. This is a drain on SP - which is a good thing, I suppose. It puts a value on life. Except that 1 SP heals a stock 3 points, no matter your defense. The one thing that BY LORE says it relies on defense does not actually rely on defense... Meaning Wolverine and an Iron Golem (WHICH CANNOT HEAL) can heal at the same rate.

Don't... just... don't get me started on Survival. I buy this for flavor. Luckily there are no moves which aim for instant kills, meaning Survival lets you be cool by taknig a sword to the heart instead of just saying it was three milliliters too high. This does not have anything to do with defense, it allows you to ignore damage (pain) except that which severs tendens or other motor-function involving bits and bobbles. It allows you to suppress what was about 50% fodder in the first place.









To sum up... Defense governs a world of nothing. Speed/Tec builds are more survivable than Defense+anything, because of the number of things that they add to.

Survival build: 1/0/5/4, Foresight, Master Acrobat, Burst Movement, Stealth
No moves even needed.

Offense build: 4/0/4/2, Area Attack, Ranged, Remote Control, Malleability, Growth, Burst Movement
Infinite Mass Punch, using the above as prerequisits. Charge up time, do a bit of damage to yourself, universal cooldown, give it a bunch of downsides to really ramp up the power. Fatigue, because a few quick breaths while your opponent is recovering can knock this down a bit.







And a point on stats vs Moves... When you write a move, you generally have to add the damage. "Minor, Major, Moderate..." This is according to the ACTUAL DAMAGE SCALE... Moves hardly ever take in stat comparisons, and when you DO mention stats, you are told not to be so "Gamey."

This... is an RPG. You can deny it all you want, but its in the URL. By self-definition, this is a game... There are two viable classes; Glass Cannon and Ninja. Pick one.

Best part? Drop 3000 OM into Stat Upgrades... 5/0/4/4 you are now a Ninja Cannon. Pick up Advanced Regeneration, because 1SP for 3 Damage is stock, your 0 Defense doesn't matter here. Want to be nigh unhittable? 3/0/6/4. You still pack a punch, but good luck getting a hold of you.


There. Got that part of the rant out... Just waiting on the banhammer.

[Amaterasu]

It's unfortunate to see yet another good writer leave :poop: You'll be missed, Gunther.

My two cents to your problems with the Omniverse though:

-Ultimately the Omniverse is an RPG because you roleplay as someone. It's really that simple. RPGs with stats, attacks and the like along the lines of Final Fantasy or other titles of that sort are RPGs too, but a different form.
-In regards to the pricings of powers and proficiencies, I think that they are priced according to the amount of utility they bring. Acrobacies are fancy but they're not going to make your character go from Zero to Hero. Mimic on the other hand gives you an enormous amount of utility because your movepool can become as large as your opponent's.
-I think that the focus on offensive moves and toning down things like Healing is partly balance purposes, and partly to avoid boring stall fights. It's not going to be interesting if both characters armor up and stack shields while healing any scratch inflicted. In terms of balancing, Healing would likely influence events like DA a lot more if it was cheaper.
-Ultimately what matters above all else is your writing. Stats are a numerical version of "this character wears armor" or "this character moves fast." 6 SPD vs 0 SPD won't mean that the 6 SPD character pretty much auto-wins because they're unhittable, it comes down to how the players write out this huge difference in speeds. A good writer will always win over a bad writer with an optimized character.

I realize that this won't make you turn back but if you have problems with moves, try the Workshop or ask people. We're your friends, not opponents.

And I wouldn't worry too much about a banhammer. Greg and the staffers aren't dictators, they don't ban free speech and you didn't go insulting anyone or do ban-worthy stuff in general :frogbon:

[Takanomiya Hijiri]

I do like the idea of the OV being partly stat-based without being a full DnD endeavour with dice rolls and whatnot, but I can see your point about stats being taken into consideration during move approval... I kinda did get the impression that your damage redirection move was blocked mainly because your DEF was high...

I don't think anyone is doing this maliciously, it's just that the OV seems to operate under a 'common law'-style system, by which I mean that moves with precedents are much easier to get approved than those without, and since attacks are more popular than defences, more of those (in greater variety) get approved than defences, which makes it harder for those who do want defensive (non-super) moves... I dunno if I'd go so far as to call it a 'vicious cycle'... but a rather inconvenient cycle, at least.

=(

EDIT: Also, I agree with Ams.
With your writing quality I'm sure you could win plenty of fights, even without your moves being perfect.

[Ebonywood Hellscythe]

Stein. The stats and moves support the roleplay. Not the other way round. Stop being so gamey.

This site is for roleplay, and the balancing on moves and the stat points are to keep everyone equal strength.

I can't think of when you were flat out told 'no' for a move - and imo, 40 seconds instead of 5 minutes for your rejected move would be worth it - but if you're doing something that's uncommon, it's going to take longer for most staff to approve. Normal shields and damage and basic debuffs are easy.

Seriously though, this is about the writing. Don't try to game the system, you'll do fine in most fights with your ability.

Literally, as 13 said. Cool it man. There's no reason to get that stressed over a roleplay site. And even if you can't do one specific move, you can make others to fill the gap.

I find it hard to believe you're not enjoying the roleplay side of things given how much you write once you've got going. And if you're not and you're just grinding for OM, then you probably should leave and go do something you do actually find fun.

To address one point, using stats in move descriptions is fine. Like ATK vs DEF for the effectiveness of a knockback move. There's plenty of other examples, some in my moves. You'll be told not to be so gamey if you make it overly complicated or focus too much on the mechanics. Number put most people off. Your moves need to be easy to decipher. I mean, my elemental blast is stupid long, but it wouldn't take longer to figure out than ten separate 300 OM moves.

Also, healing used to rely on defense. We tried it. It was worse in comparison to how it is now.

Anyway, I'm not gonna argue with ya much more. Because, honestly, it just looks like a metagaming rant about how your character is too weak because the system sucks. Which isn't true.

I can get being annoyed at not being able to have a move, but alternatives were given. And just because some take DEF as a dump stat or never bother to put in more that 3 points tops doesn't mean someone can't do a DEF build.

I can get being annoyed at having to wait for moves to be approved. But if they're uncommon in type or unique then it is going to take a while sometimes. That's inevitable. There's limited staff and your complaining isn't going to change that.

But, I can't get being annoyed about having a character that doesn't work. You made your character. It does work. If you can't do any actual damage, that's your fault. You've made a brick wall, and that's what you are.

DEF doesn't need powers for it specifically. Integration can assist, since you could harden your skin with rocks and the like, but be made slower. Besides that, taking basically no damage is good enough.

You talk like 0 DEF is fine if you never get hit. The problem is, you will get hit. AoEs, Homing. Lucky shots. Skilled opponents. You might be able to burst movement into range and hit, but you can't just do a 180 at full speed and run out. Maybe on a run-by attack, but all they would have to do is stick their arm out. And hitting a 0 DEF person even with splash is going to do a lot. It's like punching your grandma on the shoulder, unless you have 0 ATK yourself.

At the end of the day, this is about the roleplay and the writing. The stats are to stop godmodding. Coming up with creative ways to hit people or avoid being hit is half the fun for me, in the fights anyway.

Cool it dude.

P.S. It you do quit (or even if you don't), please stop using the word exponentially incorrectly.
[spoiler]It annoys me. And you do it in moves all the time. The sequence:
1, 4, 9, 16, 25... (Where the nth term is n^2) is not exponential. For something to increase exponentially, the rate of increase at a point is proportional to the value of that point.

Proportional does not mean that the amount it increases by increases by 10 each time, or something.

Proportional means that the amount it increases by each time is a set ratio, or proportion, of the value. So the sequence 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, ... (nth term is 2^n) is exponential.

(The difference between each term is 2, 4, 8, 16..., which is a ratio or fraction of the main sequence)

Another test if something is exponential is if consecutive terms share the same ratio. So 2/4 = 4/8 = 8/16 = 16/32 = ...
In the above case.

These tests also work for continuous graphs. Such as y = 2^x for all real x (not just integers}.

The rate of increase happens to be ln(2)*(2^x) for a given x (where ln is the natural logarithm). Not going to explain that result, because then I'd have to explain calculus. But because ln(2) is a constant, the rate of increase is proportional to the value of y at a given point.

Alternatively, you could see if (2^(x+a))/(2^x) remains constant for all real a regardless of what x is. Which it does (since that simplifies to 2^a).

Anyway, stop using exponential incorrectly. It's annoying.

/rant.[/spoiler]

[PepsiYuuka]

I'm not going to touch anything else on this rant because to be honest I'm lazy. But what you say about Buff vs Debuff that buffs should be a "dime a dozen" and that it's silly that debuff is "worth over twice as much" comes down to the fact that typically, buffs only have the greatest effect when fighting with allies. Buffs are only allowed to significantly benefit your allies in a fight, not yourself, as self-buff is classified as transformation. And you won't always have allies in every fight, hence the lower price point. Whereas flat out, in any given fight, the assumption is there will be an enemy. And debuffs have no such limit on only having effects on "extra" enemies beyond the first. This is why Debuff costs twice as much.

Anyway that's my minor point. But what everyone else has pointed out is true as well. Fights are stil based on writing capability above most else. Regardless of how "good" your stats or moves are, you'll be beaten by a better writer most of the time. This isn't even an Omniverse exclusive thing- even full tabletop RPGs like Exalted have similar concepts with Stunts giving you bonus dice and DnD 5th giving you inspiration bonuses for doing cool things. That's the way RPGs are going- they focus more on the RP and less on the G.

[Harlan Higgs]

Bruh you focus way too much on munchkining the stats. It's about the writing.

[Kirano Jr]

Bruh you focus way too much on munchkining the stats. It's about the writing.

Exactly. Writing > stats

Like you said Gunther, don't get into fights. Just RP.

[Omni]

I'm going to co-opt this rant for my own rant.

I think the problem is too many people trying to write moves that are anything other than "simple attack/shield", honestly :frog: If you go back to doing that, you'll have fun and it'll be less stressful all around. When you write moves, it reads like you're trying to get the absolute maximum for the absolute minimum. It doesn't feel like you're writing what a character does. It feels like you're designing a game. And not a platformer or a fighting game, both games which translate well to the Omniverse, I'm talking an MMO with a convoluted, maths-based system that would never translate to a real-life fight.

As a general rule, if you have to use MMO terminology like "Universal Cooldown", "DOT", etc in your move description, you're way off.

A literal copy and paste from my comments the staff topic for discussing this move (yeah, this needed a staff topic)

It's a skill commonly called "Protect Ally" that lots of MMO tank classes use, but that duration is usually only for a single hit, or 10-30 seconds, with a long cooldown. His "40 seconds makes it totally useless" comment is silly.

I mean, you're trying to get really overpowered stuff and coming at a character from a perspective of "systems". Even Tearen, who's famous for silly out-there moves, writes his moves out from a perspective of "this is what my character is doing", and is pretty reasonable on the costs and performance.

Even in animes like Code Geass where the characters have "gamey" powers with special rules and conditions, they usually only have one power. They don't try and make their whole moveset a mess of nightmarish interconnected systems. It's too complex, and it's too much for staff to approve. Honestly, I was lying in bed last night wondering what the solution was, and I'm on the verge of saying "no more complex moves" or simply saying that staff can say no if a move is too complex. Because it's too much. The only alternative is to dismantle the entire move system, because I'm never gonna be around all the time to approve everything, and not everyone on the staff team can handle complex moves. It's not sustainable.

But seeing this, I'm actually a bit relieved, and reminded that the majority of people write fairly normal, reasonable moves. But I am still on the verge of saying that overly-complex moves can simply be rejected. It's simply too much.

IT'S TIME TO STOP.

By the way, here's your move in the second-most popular subscription MMO out currently, FFXIV: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Cover

Take all damage intended for another party member, suffering only 80% of it.
Duration: 12s
Can only be executed when member is closer than 10 yalms. Does not activate with certain attacks.

Not useless there, and it's got a twelve second duration. Twelve second. With a two minute cooldown, and a radius of ~12 yards.
(It's worth noting that this move uses different mechanics in the PvP mode, because the normal Cover would be considered unbalanced for PvP)
I gave you forty seconds, for a five-second chargeup, with a range of thirty metres! It's such a powerful utility move. For a high defense character, it's perfect, invaluable.

And you call that useless.

:frog:

And let me just be real-Greg for a second.

Five minutes?

FIVE MINUTES?!

FIVE MINUTES?!

FOR A FIVE SECOND CHARGEUP



Edit:
... Moves aside, dude, I think you're okay. And man, I'm not gonna ban you unless you're, y'know, breaking the rules.

[Oleander]

The move cited has functionally no downside, being an instant, range, homing buff. I agree 5 minutes was a long duration, and I was not expecting to get all of that, but for five seconds of absolute vulnurability arms reach from another character, forty seconds can't be written smart unless you just write your opponent dumber. It would have been possible at-range if Stein could take even minor damage, but absolute vulnerability for five seconds makes it a one-off at best.

But this isn't just about the one move, like everyone seems to think. I've had a lot of struggles with moves because I enjoy complexity. Omni said comfirmed that attack/shield moves should be the norm, which means the Tank/Support is going to just be a bunch of shields and cover fire. People were already asking why I needed so many shields after Palm. Comet and Hook, so... I guess I should have just had a dozen attacks then. Again, following the normal flow of character builds.

That's what bothered me more. Complexity is in my nature, I absolutely love it. I can't help it, quantum entanglement, string theory, electron tunneling, dark energy, antimatter collision... I don't have a degree in physics, but I enjoy reading and trying to understand these things, because its fun. I was trying to create a moveset with a degree of complexity that it took a bit of thinking to use and counter. In essense, I thought I could break a mold that might've been unintnetionally set.

Come to realize, that mold was very much intentional, as Omni said. No complex moves might become a thing. No MMO type moves, which sucks since... guess what I'm going to college to do? Game design... MMO speciality. Another thing that my mind works well in... I play a bunch of MMO's, and guess what my favorite roll is? Tank/Support. They often offer the higher level of complexity, especially when trying to solo which by default makes you want to be more social.

People keep pointing at the one move, but it was just the straw that broke the camels back. I'm not outright attacking anyone in particular, and I'm sorry for the bitch fest of a rant, but it was to show, again, that the problem is with how I see the Omniverse. How *I* see the Omniverse.

I joined primarily because the rules are about 75% RPG statistics, if not more. In fact I'm pretty sure they're about 90% RPG statistics. I joined because the URL was "Omniverse-RPG." That caught my eye. I thought it was a Roleplaying Game in text format. Again, I was wrong.



This thread was meant more as an apology than an insult to anyone, the title clearly puts me in the wrong. I'm sorry if anyone felt insulted, or if my last push at the system (the move everyone seems to think this is about) irked people. I did enjoy writing in the fantastic lore that you guys have set up, and had I been able to add my own flair to things, I would have no doubt stayed here for years to come.

But... my "flair" is not compatible. My style of complex, MMO, Gamey, what-have-you is not what the Omniverse is looking for in longstanding players. I was not intending to insult how this site works, just that the the psuedo-complexity of Omniphysics when translated through Handwavium (the oversimplification process) does not work for me. I've failed consistently at conforming to it.

In summery; I was hoping and trying to satisfy a level of complexity that no one wants.