Fight Challenge: Dante vs. Zangetsu

[Thaal Sinestro]

I'll write up my judgement ASAP! I'm typing up a post for the Secondary Saga, but I would expect the cards to be up NLT tomorrow evening.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Yo guys! I really enjoyed the thread. It was a good fight, and it really followed the style and direction of the original media. It was fun to imagine the fight as it was written, and the back and forth was well-paced and enjoyable.

This is how the number system works for the purposes of grading. Keep in mind that a “2” is AVERAGE for the purposes of this grading, so if you don’t see 4s and 5s, that doesn’t mean you did poorly. This site has a high caliber of writers, and doing as well as anyone here certainly isn’t a bad thing!
[spoiler]1: There is room for improvement. Generally the reviewer should highlight how the writer could improve this area as well as direct them to outside sources that can give more help.

2: This section was about average. The writer has room for improvement but about par with the rest of the site’s writing ability. Reviewer should highlight areas to improve and site specific errors or weak spots.

3: This section is above average. The writer has shown a competency higher than the average writer on the site, but can still notably improve. The reviewer can be vague with their ideas for improvement but still include specific details and weak spots.

4: This section was fantastic! The writer took the reins and really took the reader on a journey. Few errors or room for improvement can be found by the reviewer but anything that the reviewer feels could be cleaned up should be noted.

5: This section is one of the best the reviewer has ever seen. This level of writing is on par with professionals with very few errors and the reviewer should have a hard time finding room to improve. This grade should be handed out rarely, and only to the very best writing![/spoiler]

Dante

Description and Clarity: 2
This is a big section, but it also covers a lot.

Overall, you did a pretty good job describing things, and when you are restrained to a word count, sometime description can fall a bit behind out of necessity. However, I DO think that incorporating more descriptive detail can greatly improve your writing.

Giving the reader more information for the senses can really give a scene some spirit, and without it, they can fall a little flat. Especially in a combat situation, it is easy to get caught up in the visual and how exactly things are operating from a technical perspective, but things like sound, smell and feeling can add a layer of humanity that really pulls us in. These details can also be used to lead the reader’s expectations and understanding of what’s happening, or even reveal more about the character through the medium of combat.

I found that sometimes when you were trying to describe what was happening technically, I had a hard time understanding what you meant.
For example:

"Seriously? Just shut up and fight, chalk-face."
With a rude answer to a rude question, Dante took the moment of clashed blades to adopt his two-handed grip in any case, completing at least the second intent of his preliminary attack. That counter-attack leading into the blade clash had ruined his momentum plan, but he'd preserve nonetheless.

This line took me three or four read-throughs to really pick up what you meant. A lot of what you were trying to describe could have been said more simply to make the action more easily understood. It’s a pitfall for a lot of writers and, importantly, one that can be fixed by careful editing. Most of the time when describing actions, make it simpler makes it easier to understand. That doesn’t mean you can’t do complicated things, just ensure that you describe complex actions slowly, clearly, and make sure you read through it and change the way you describe things to be clearer.

Using a clear name or other identifier other than “him,” “he,” “his,” and etc will allow the reader to understand EXACTLY who is acting. I ran into a few moments of confusion because I wasn’t sure whose sword or body was acting or being affected.

Putting the descriptors for your dialogue WITH the dialogue will also “clean up” your description a bit, ensuring that the reader knows exactly what you’re describing.

"Seriously?” Dante gawked, answering a rude question with a rude answer. “Just shut up and fight, chalk-face."
Dante took the moment afforded by the clashed blades to adopt his two-handed grip, at least completing the second intention of his attack. Zangetsu’s counter had ruined his momentum, but he'd preserve nonetheless.

Know that that was only a suggestion, and is certainly far from perfect. I mostly just rearranged the words in the exchange and pruned a few clauses. It was EDITTING that made it clearer because the original writing was solid and had good ideas and word choice.

There are a lot of times when the length and confusion of your sentences was due to repetition.

While Zangetsu made his own show of tasting the half-devil' spilled blood, meanwhile, Dante's vision subtly darted about to track his missing blade.

There are examples like this all over, where by error or intention, you repeat yourself in the sentence. Again, I think editing would help you a lot here.

Voice: 2.5
You had a strong voice in most of the writing! It’s something that can be hampered by the pace of combat, being pushed out for the sake of clarity but you managed to keep it in there for the most part.

And unlike a showdown with Vergil resulting in a combat filled with only their might and skill, Zangetsu seemed to be rather keen at psychological warfare as well, making this a battle on two fronts. Prove Zangetsu's instinct wrong and lose the fight, or win and prove him right?

Obviously, the answer was the one in which that damn sword spirit died and got out of Dante's hair.

That’s a good example of how you kept a bit of spunk in the fight. You can kind of feel some of the personality of the character in the writing itself. It feels loose and a bit cocky, like the character.

It can be pushed a bit further though. Using certain words that describe the situation can really flavor the read. My best suggestion for that is to bust out your thesaurus and use it, finding words that “feel” better for the character. Also, changing the way you structure sentences and where you insert breaks can change the rhythm for the reader, making it easier to see things from the character’s perspective.

I think adding in a bit more flair, fun and a hyper pace would add to this score a lot. You’re touching on a strong, individual “flavor” for your writing style, but pushing it out and getting a bit more comfortable with yourself and the character will go a long way.

Character: 3.5
Dante is an interesting character, and the things you used his history for were very cool. I like the internal conflict you faced us with throughout the fight, because conflict is usually what drives a character like Dante.

As Zangetsu asked his piercing question, Dante reflected the question upon himself in a more proper manner: did he even want this sword? Certainly not now, but in the first place? Strictly speaking, he wanted power. All the power he had lost-

It hit Dante like a motorcycle to the face. He was turning into his brother, driven cold and obsessed with reclaiming all the might and magic he rightfully deserved.

That’s a cool way to work with this character in this situation!

There’s some good dialogue, but it sort of failed to be awesome one-liner material, and it also sort of fell short of what I would call “realistic” conversation or banter. It’s certainly not bad, but working on making it more witty or making it more grounded would pull you out of this “in-between” zone.

You plugged in some of his more memorable moves, the leaping, spinning pistol attack being the highlight of them.

By including the more subtle details of his actions, you can really bring him to life. Tapping his fingers, small adjustments to his clothing, anything. Dante has quite a few little tics he likes to repeat, and finding one that suits your writing of the character might help guide you in fleshing out his idle actions and make him more of a living, breathing, character.

Story: 3
A lot of the story in this fight is tied directly to your character’s development, which makes for a compelling story, especially in the framework of this particular fight. The way that you used the fight as a way to express growth and development, making decisions and realizations about the underlying motivations and desires of your character, was really good.

However, making these changes more emotional, and making them more apparent through the words and actions of the character would have served you better, here. Sometimes you chose to use exposition instead of dialogue or action, TELLING the audience how Dante was feeling and thinking instead of SHOWING us how he was thinking and feeling. It’s more subtle and difficult to write, but it’s ultimately a more rewarding read.

Additionally, I understand why you held off on doing your Devil Trigger till the very end, but also you sort of deprived yourself of a good opportunity to use that character change a bit more. Again, we’re dealing with a fight, with a cramped word count and a restricted number of posts, but having more time in his improved form might have been an interesting insight into the character.

Grammar and Spelling: 2
Decent job here. It’s about what I’d expect from an average thread on the site, even a little bit better. The current themes on the internet follows a lot of themes, and those themes are a strong identifier between an “internet writer” and a professional author. Now, that doesn’t mean I’m going to go grammar psycho all over your work, because it’s not warranted and even professional authors don’t completely follow perfect grammar conventions. Here are some of the things you might want to cut down on:

Zangetsu seemed all too coy. Something of a violent chessmaster, a spirit who wanted his own way only and would twist any rule, any person, to his own gains. And if they didn't cooperate... well, he had a big sword.

Ellipsis: This is the “…” that people use to indicate a pause. It’s a really common crutch in a lot of people’s writing, and it’s never used quite right. It’s one of the BIGGEST indicators of an “internet writer.” Use it when a sentence is ending incomplete, or use it when a sentence will continue later, not in the middle of a sentence. Overall, it’s something I would avoid overall. If there’s a pause in a character’s speech, end the quotation and explain how or why the character is pausing, then continue.

”I just don’t know how I can go on drinking,” Tommy paused, closing his eyes and pinching the bridge of his nose, “All those bottles. All that milk.”

Dante was privy to the working of people like this, but not exactly bearing Zangetsu's attitude. But the Son of Sparda had an advantage yet, with Zangetsu having injected his own understanding and being into Dante.

Here is what smart people say about starting sentences with And and But:
[spoiler]There is a persistent belief that it is improper to begin a sentence with And, but this prohibition has been cheerfully ignored by standard authors from Anglo-Saxon times onwards. An initial And is a useful aid to writers as the narrative continues.
from The New Fowler's Modern English Usage
edited by R.W. Burchfield. Clarendon Press: Oxford, England. 1996.

The same is true with the conjunction but. A sentence beginning with and or but will tend to draw attention to itself and its transitional function. Writers should examine such sentences with two questions in mind: (1) would the sentence and paragraph function just as well without the initial conjunction? (2) should the sentence in question be connected to the previous sentence? If the initial conjunction still seems appropriate, use it. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm">http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conjunctions.htm</a><!-- m -->[/spoiler]
That about covers it. Did you NEED that “But”? Probably not, so cut it.

Devil Arms were spirit and instinct too, but Zangetsu was far more than that, and far more dangerous, therefore.

Sentence structure. The way that “therefore” is tacked onto the end of this sentence makes it a rough, choppy read. The sentence would have been fine without it, but if you wanted it in there it would have done better earlier.

Devil Arms were spirit and instinct too, but Zangetsu was far more than that, and therefore far more dangerous.

TOTAL: 13
Work on slimming and refining your work. You have a lot of great thoughts, ideas and movements with your character, but your biggest downfall is that you aren’t editing and purifying your sentences. Make them clear, concise, ensure that every word is as well places as it can be.

I don’t do this in every post, obviously, and most people don’t. But practicing and perfecting your editing skills will make or break your writing. Comb through your work, and you’ll see the quality rise.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Z's grade will be up ASAP

[Thaal Sinestro]

Zangetsu

Description and Clarity: 2.5
I got lost very rarely in your work, and for the most part I had a very clear idea of what was going on. That’s a good thing!

However, a lot of your description came off very flat and didn’t give the reader a lot to chew on. With the same “this is a fight and therefore constrained” exceptions as Dante got, you could still be working more descriptive detail into your writing. Use our senses, use adjectives, describe to us the little details about objects, movements and words. Fill the world with details that define it so that it feels more “lived in.”

The senses work well in this situation, and as I mentioned before, it is the eternal temptation of the writer to think of his writing as a movie or a TV show in terms of action, because we can “see” the actions in our head. We’re trained to do that by our media. However, in the medium of writing, we have access to ALL of the reader’s senses, and therefore we are given an opportunity to truly give a scene life by stimulating ALL of them. Not just sight, but subtle sounds, smells, textures and feelings. Give us EVERYTHING in vivid detail, and never be afraid to find just the right word to express what you want to convey.

He chuckled and took his sword into both of his hands, taking the ready stance commonly found among the Soul Reaper's form of Kendo as Dante motioned for him to ready himself.

You are also suffering from a lot of the word repetition that Dante did, which is a fairly common issue for a lot of writers on the site and elsewhere. “Taking” and “took” are not only repeated, but could be easily replaced with more descriptive words. For example, “Taking the ready stance” could have been, “slid into,” “firmly stepped into,” “hopped into,” “stomped into,” etc. Forcing yourself to not repeat words MAKES you describe actions more accurately because you’ll have to crack open a thesaurus and find related words.

You are also doing a lot of TELLING instead of SHOWING. You are TELLING us how your character feels, why he is doing something, and how he is thinking. Instead, let his actions, his subtle movements, his expressions, and his words do those things, at least some of the time. By showing us how a character is acting instead of flat out telling us, you make them more real, more tangible.

You did a good job of identifying exactly who you were talking about by using the character’s names, which avoided a lot of confusion. However, seeing the same name again and again in the same sentences can be a bit dry. Instead, think of synonyms for the characters. You peppered in, “half-demon” a few times, but broaden that out. Use the character’s attributes to identify them, use the situation. It’ll help break up your writing and give it a bit more texture.

He would be Damned if this was the end of Dante's display.

There were also a few times when I was confused by what you meant, so just make sure what you’ve got down makes sense in the context you’ve given.

All of the physical descriptions you gave of the fight scenes were pretty clear, so I’d focus on other areas.

Voice: 2
Because you didn’t bring a lot of description to life, a lot of your writing felt fairly flat. I couldn’t feel the emotion of the situation or understand the tension of the characters inherently through the writing, so you had to tell me. Use more vibrant descriptions, and make sure that a bit of personality gets through your writing.

Try changing the pace that you make sentences by imagining your words as a camera, slowly revealing parts of a shot. If you want to speed things up, use shorter sentences with slightly less detail. If you want to slow things down, really hang on every detail, make sure the reader is panting in anticipation for the resolution of the scene.

You can show the personality of a character through the way you write about them, not just by flat-out telling us how they are thinking or feeling, so play with that. Practice making details personal, and making sure each movement and action speaks about the person that’s doing them.

If you work on the depth of your description, I think this score will come up.

Character: 2.5
I liked a lot of the ideas you put forward with Zangetsu, but I feel like a lot of them didn’t translate into this fight. It’s an inherently cool character idea, so it’s naturally intriguing. There’s such a great potential for knowledge, growth, struggle and realization in this character that the possibilities are almost endless, which is why I was a little disappointed when you didn’t play with the ample opportunities to make it into a truly dynamic experience.

I think the problem in this was that you focused really hard on the physical aspects of the fight and so a lot of the things that made your character interesting didn’t make the cut. You threw in a couple of insults and quips here and there, and towards the end you showed us some of his conclusions he’s drawn, but I was left wanting MORE.

If he’s testing a character, it’s about MORE than the fight, you know? I feel like, as the writer, you were focused on winning the fight instead of exploring the character and what this fight means to them. Ironically, that kind of shot you in the foot rather than helped you out.

Keep who your character IS in mind, and show his motivations through his actions and words. Keep the character’s goals and feelings at the forefront of your mind, even during a fight.

Story: 2.5
A lot of your decisions for the story were based solely on the physical movement of the fight. I appreciate the dynamic nature you gave us as the characters shared back and forth movement, and the way you creatively dealt with problems was fun to read, especially with the clarity you wrote them with.

The spirit regained his footing and charged headfirst into the spray of non-lethal bullets, with the majority of them ricocheting off of Zangetsu's steel. Before long he had reached the source of the steel rain, twisting his wrist and swinging the blade down in an over-head arc, only to clank against the ground as Dante rolled away.

That’s an example of the clean, creative writing that make it interesting to read your story. If we could have gone on an equally engaging emotional ride to go with the narrative, it would have really hammered the action home.

Grammar and Spelling: 2
Again, you’re about what I’d expect for the site, and that’s not a bad thing. You are actually probably better than quite a few writers here, but there’s still room to improve. Practice and read up on some of the other reviews on the site, ESPECIALLY ZELDA’S. Zelda gives great advise on grammar, and looking at a few of her examples is a great idea.

'Dante and Rebellion... better fitting.. than I

You’re also struggling with ellipses, but yours especially so because you aren’t completing them. “..” isn’t an ellipses, you need a full 3 periods to make it correct, like, “…”
In most cases you would have done a lot better to just remove them entirely. Check out Dante’s review for an example of how.

Also watch out for hanging punctuation, like that errant ‘ at the beginning there. I have no idea what purpose it was meant to serve, especially on its own. Editing.

While the sword spirit's attention was driven away by the crimson garbed Half Devil, the latter had drawn two shining pistols and opened fired.

There were several times when there were just grammatical errors due to editing, and all I can say for that is “edit harder.” It’s harsh, I know, but it’s all we can really do to improve. I’m a horrible typist and a lazy editor, so these kinds of grammatical and spelling errors bite me in the ass all the time. If you’re competing, take your time and do it right with two, three, or more read-throughs.

TOTAL: 11.5

[Thaal Sinestro]

DANTE HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN JUDGED AS THE WINNER
13 POINTS TO 11.5

[Thaal Sinestro]

As a quick PS to both of you:

Onomatopoeia are not usually good for writing sounds a character makes.

For the first time since coming here, this was the first time he found himself without words that weren't "aghghhg" or other noise synonymous with pain, but not for a lack of trying.

And

"HHHRRRAAAAHHH!!"

In both of these cases, DESCRIBING the words would have been FAR better. As it stands they see weird and out of place, breaking the flow of the sentence and the tension of a moment, respectively.

There ARE times when sound effects can be used effectively, but their use is very dependent on the moment and on the scene. Be careful with them in the future.

[Miranda Frost]

hmm mmkay. I can see everything here.

I appreciate the time and effort you put into this review. All this will be useful to me down the road.

@DANTE: You probably know this buut as the winner, you may decide the fate of poor Zangetsu here

[Simon]

Well, there we have it. It always tends to hit me when I see my work critiqued like this, but I appreciate that and your judging nonetheless, Sinestro.

I'll have up a following post in due time.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Well, there we have it. It always tends to hit me when I see my work critiqued like this, but I appreciate that and your judging nonetheless, Sinestro.

I'll have up a following post in due time.

It can be a blow sometimes, but realize that your writing isn't BAD. It's not bad at all. Hell, even if it was, don't take it to heart. All of us, each and every one, can only improve through practice and study. You're doing great, and you'll improve vastly as a writer the more you go after it!

That goes for both of you.

I remember when I started writing online competitively, I was... a mess. It wasn't as good as you guys are writing, so you're already beyond where I was when I had my first fight.

[Deadpool]

Well, there we have it. It always tends to hit me when I see my work critiqued like this, but I appreciate that and your judging nonetheless, Sinestro.

I'll have up a following post in due time.

I would't take the scoring too much to heart. Especially in the "Voice" and Description/Clarity" departments; those kinda go hand and hand.

Giving your work a stronger "Voice" simply means giving it your own style. Maybe using unconventional means to describing something? (I often do this, using analogies in my posts to give it a certain vibe). You just have to play around with different styles and tone-setters, and find out which one works best for you.

"Description/Clarity" usually is dulled down if you use a bunch of unnecessary words. Just try to describe something as well as you can, but with as little words as possible. A lot of times you can replace an adverb or adjective with a better noun or verb (ex. instead of saying leisurely walked you can say sauntered). In the areas where you feel like your description is too light, you can always try to reread the paragraph out-loud, and see how it sounds. This usually helps me.





These suggestions go to both of you, by the way. By no means was Thaal's judging supposed to bring out insecurities in your skill. Simply to compare/contrast the competitors, and to highlight areas of strength of areas that need some refining.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Deadpool is actually an awesome person to look at for good examples of Voice. He does description pretty damn well also, but I'd say the msot striking feature of the writing is Voice. He's consistently a 4 in that regard.


Here's two good examples of both Description and Voice, right next to each other in this thread: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://omniverse-rpg.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3306&p=34477#p33573">viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3306&p=34477#p33573</a><!-- l -->
This kind of comparisons are good to help you see the difference between the 2 aspects, but they ARE inherently tied together.

The air was moist, and humid. Somewhere far away, birds sang together without rhythm, accompanied by whooping whistles from other unknown creatures. Green—more vivid and lush that any sight the mercenary had seen before—popped from every direction. Not much light pierced the canopy of trees and branches, but the light that did hit the ground did so in fragments, which would dance across the grass every time a breeze swept through.

Description. He clearly describes the area, and the details he offers gives us an sensory and emotional connection to the scene.

It reminded him of past missions, conducted deep within the Asia. They flooded his mind in vague, contorted video clips; memories of his past realm—life too it seemed at times—were beginning to fade away, but some fabrics to them were as durable as a quality pair of denim.

Deadpool expected a much less forested verse. This definitely wasn’t Camelot. He turned to see if the portal behind him still existed. Nothing. All he saw was more trees, grass, tall grass, and shrubbery. The connection between the Danteverse and neighboring verses was a one-way, one-time gig.

”That sucks,” Deadpool muttered, pouting as he turned forward.

There were no paths to guide him—no awkward little people lining up either side of a yellow brick road.

Voice. 100 writers could write this scene, and none of them would write it like this unless they were Deadpool. The humor is in the references he makes, the zany weirdness of it. Like, "denim" as a way to describe a stubborn memory that refuses to fade. Yellow brick road. He injects his, or rather, HIS CHARACTER'S personality into the writing. Even without the clear and good description, I would be able to tell who was writing this because of his strong Voice.

[Simon]

Sorry, Zangetsu, u ded.

[Miranda Frost]

well poop. I assume can make a post in the astral plane? (it was mentioned before)

meh. 3-days for an awesome end. it feels good to see Zangetsu's mind games worked.

[Thaal Sinestro]

well poop. I assume can make a post in the astral plane? (it was mentioned before)

meh. 3-days for an awesome end. it feels good to see Zangetsu's mind games worked.

Yup, 3 IG and OOG days stuck in Astral.