Transformations vs Super Moves

[Reece]

So, In my great quest to think up a half-decent character to play, I've been looking though both the rules and some people's stories as well, and whilst I admit that I've read only a tiny fraction of what's been written here, it has got me thinking about certain things; one of which is combat. Or, more specifically, SP-related combat.

Tier 1 Transformations (or Assists, for that matter) cost 2 SP per round, right? Which means that one of those is just as expensive to use as a Tier 2 Super Move. Now obviously there are always going to be characters who use Transformations, regardless of what they cost, since players are, of course, going to want to represent their chosen characters accurately...

But from a purely mechanical standpoint; aren't they significantly worse in combat than a Super Move would be? Honestly, given that most injuries are caused by Super Attacks, whilst even attacks from someone with a Tier 2 transformation will usually just inflict Accumulated Damage, I'm not sure that they'd hold a candle from a Mechanical perspective even if they didn't cost double the SP.

It seems to me that a more efficient method of using a power-up might be to just buy a Super Defence and Super Attack, and only use those (along with the Shapeshifting power or an Alternate Form to make your character look different, if you wanted) during your "transformation", so as to make it seem like they were just powered-up versions of basic moves.
For the same price as maintaining a Tier 1 transformation for an entire fight (6 SP), you could use a Tier 1 Defensive- or Utility-Type Super Move in every single one of your posts, plus end each of those posts by launching a Tier 1 Super Attack.

So am I missing something here? Or do a few extra stat points really make so much of a difference that they make up for this?

Thanks for your help, whomever replies. :mrgreen:

[Minato Namikaze]

Tier 1 Transformations (or Assists, for that matter) cost 2 SP per round, right?

actually, I think you've misread the information;

Tier 1 Assist – 5 stats – 1 SP per post – 1000 OM
Tier 2 Assist – 10 stats – 2 SP per post – 1500 OM
Tier 3 Assist – 20 stats – 4 SP per post – 2000 OM

But from a purely mechanical standpoint; aren't they significantly worse in combat than a Super Move would be? Honestly, given that most injuries are caused by Super Attacks, whilst even attacks from someone with a Tier 2 transformation will usually just inflict Accumulated Damage, I'm not sure that they'd hold a candle from a Mechanical perspective even if they didn't cost double the SP.

You shouldn't look at things here from a purely mechanical stand point, it's a bad habit to get into because not everything here will work as the mechanics might dictate, plus it can get confusing and what not. At the same time, both super moves and transformations have different uses that will often compliment each other in a game play and role playing sense.

Also, you have to remember that a transformation/ power up temporarily buffs your stats, which also means that any moves you have (barring super moves I think) will have their effective power increased. Super moves, however, do not buff stats at all. They are a single attack/ defense that may drain your energy much faster than a transformation (if you're using them in quick succession).

It seems to me that a more efficient method of using a power-up might be to just buy a Super Defence and Super Attack, and only use those (along with the Shapeshifting power or an Alternate Form to make your character look different, if you wanted) during your "transformation", so as to make it seem like they were just powered-up versions of basic moves.

You're going to waste a lot of energy this way, maintaining a shape shift while also spamming super moves like that. Also, like you said, it would only seem like you've powered up. In reality, the only scary thing about this combination would be the use of a super attack to finish your post.

For the same price as maintaining a Tier 1 transformation for an entire fight (6 SP), you could use a Tier 1 Defensive- or Utility-Type Super Move in every single one of your posts, plus end each of those posts by launching a Tier 1 Super Attack.

So am I missing something here? Or do a few extra stat points really make so much of a difference that they make up for this?

Again, you misread the SP costs

Tier 1 Power-Up – Adds 5 stats – 1 SP per post – 1000 OM
Tier 2 Power-Up – Adds 10 stats – 2 SP per post – 1500 OM
Tier 3 Power-Up – Adds 20 stats – 4 SP per post – 2000 OM

Tier 1 Powered-Up Form – 15 stats total – 1 SP per post – 1000 OM
Tier 2 Powered-Up Form – 20 stats total – 2 SP per post – 1500 OM
Tier 3 Powered-Up Form – 30 stats total – 4 SP per post – 2000 OM

Also, doing things like that in a fight would almost guarantee complete exhaustion after only a few rounds. Considering exhaustion is represented as much more than just SP loss in an actual fight. A lot of fights may never have any super moves used, so exhaustion in a fight can't just be summed up as how much SP you've used. Also, most people won't opt for maintaining their transformation/ power up for an entire fight.

and if I'm wrong/ have the wrong idea about anything I just replied with, a mod/admin will correct me.

[Omni]

To me, having a single, powerful attack in one post or all your regular attacks at effectively 1.5x strength for one post (it wouldn't actually work out like that, but we'll use that for argument's sake) is a pretty fair choice. Both options are valid.

(A lot of what Min said is incorrect, just heads up)

[Roger Smith]

Can't write much because of my phone, but i did what to pop in with one thing about what Minato said about transformations.

Each one, transformation or powered up form, does cost 1 SP post post, naturally, but 2 SP post round -- that is, one post from you and all other parties involved. So at face value, super moves are more SP-efficient, but taking things at pure face or mechanical value, add Minato said, isn't always a good .

Just a little thing to add for my two cents.

(Omni also beat me here. Gotta go faster, i guess.)

[Minato Namikaze]

To me, having a single, powerful attack in one post or all your regular attacks at effectively 1.5x strength for one post (it wouldn't actually work out like that, but we'll use that for argument's sake) is a pretty fair choice. Both options are valid.

(A lot of what Min said is incorrect, just heads up)

^This bold part, this right here, this is what I mean -returns to lurking corner-

[Sarah Kerrigan]

Each one, transformation or powered up form, does cost 1 SP post post, naturally, but 2 SP post round -- that is, one post from you and all other parties involved. So at face value, super moves are more SP-efficient, but taking things at pure face or mechanical value, add Minato said, isn't always a good .

So a level 3 Transform costs 6 SP per round...? Good to know!

[Reece]

You're going to waste a lot of energy this way, maintaining a shape shift while also spamming super moves like that. Also, like you said, it would only seem like you've powered up. In reality, the only scary thing about this combination would be the use of a super attack to finish your post.

Shape-shifts are supposed to cost energy to maintain? Huh. Ditto makes it seem effortless in his stories, and the rules don't mention anything about an energy drain either (unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible).

Also, doing things like that in a fight would almost guarantee complete exhaustion after only a few rounds. Considering exhaustion is represented as much more than just SP loss in an actual fight. A lot of fights may never have any super moves used, so exhaustion in a fight can't just be summed up as how much SP you've used. Also, most people won't opt for maintaining their transformation/ power up for an entire fight.

This is good to know, thanks. I was previously thinking that Super Moves only cost SP, not regular energy as well. Thanks for clearing that up.

To me, having a single, powerful attack in one post or all your regular attacks at effectively 1.5x strength for one post (it wouldn't actually work out like that, but we'll use that for argument's sake) is a pretty fair choice. Both options are valid.

I see, thanks. Just out of interest, for the sake of saving SP, would it be possible to create a Power-Up with no visual effect at all, and create an Alternate Form which did have an effect (glowing eyes, for example); and only use the actual Power-Up during your own turns, but still portray it as being used constantly IC... because otherwise the only way to maintain a T1 Transformation for a whole fight would be to either reach level 6, or buy a few Elixers for 250OM each. :-(

You shouldn't look at things here from a purely mechanical stand point, it's a bad habit to get into because not everything here will work as the mechanics might dictate,

taking things at pure face or mechanical value, add Minato said, isn't always a good idea.

Noted.

Also, now that I think about it, I actually have another question as well:
Does it cost SP to use Transformations and/or Assists in a story sense only (rather than in an actual, mechanical, fight), and if so, how does that work? Is it still 1 SP per post, even though posts in a story will likely last much longer, or is there a specific amount of time I should use if I do end up picking a character like that?

Thanks for your replies, everyone. :mrgreen:

[Omni]

I see, thanks. Just out of interest, for the sake of saving SP, would it be possible to create a Power-Up with no visual effect at all, and create an Alternate Form which did have an effect (glowing eyes, for example); and only use the actual Power-Up during your own turns, but still portray it as being used constantly IC... because otherwise the only way to maintain a T1 Transformation for a whole fight would be to either reach level 6

That's kind of the point >.>

[Reece]

That's kind of the point >.>

Huh. Well... that's unfortunate, but okay. It's your RP, and I'm not even a real player, yet, so it's certainly not my place to object to your rules.

In that case; is it possible to buy a Powered-Down Form?
Which is to say; an Alternate Form with less than ten stat points.

I know this probably seems entirely unnecessary, but there are some cases when it would make sense, IC. Shinji Ikari, for instance, whilst certainly not being someone I'd ever actually want to play, does make for a good example, since he's completely and utterly useless outside of being EVA Unit 1's pilot, and as such (if he was to be represented with any degree of accuracy) would never be fighting without it.
And yet, it wouldn't be possible to have him remain in the mecha full time, since not only would he be unable to fit inside buildings, but he wouldn't actually even be able to pass through the Nexus gates.

You see what I mean? And obviously it wouldn't make any sort of sense if Shinji on his own had the same (or nearly the same) stats as an EVA. So... would it be acceptable to have a Form which reduced your stats to zero, or to one maybe; in order to have a character who is essentially just a regular person when outside of combat?

Thanks again. :mrgreen:

[Cloud Strife]

I know this probably seems entirely unnecessary, but there are some cases when it would make sense, IC. Shinji Ikari, for instance, whilst certainly not being someone I'd ever actually want to play, does make for a good example, since he's completely and utterly useless outside of being EVA Unit 1's pilot, and as such (if he was to be represented with any degree of accuracy) would never be fighting without it.
And yet, it wouldn't be possible to have him remain in the mecha full time, since not only would he be unable to fit inside buildings, but he wouldn't actually even be able to pass through the Nexus gates.

You see what I mean? And obviously it wouldn't make any sort of sense if Shinji on his own had the same (or nearly the same) stats as an EVA. So... would it be acceptable to have a Form which reduced your stats to zero, or to one maybe; in order to have a character who is essentially just a regular person when outside of combat?

Thanks again. :mrgreen:

I don't think that's a thing , but i think you can always have a character come here with their stats allocated as normal, but for RP purposes role play them as weaker and have them train up to what you allocated in the joining thread.

E.g.

ATK: 1 - 3
DEF: 1 - 2
SPD: 1 - 2
TEC: 1 - 3

Where the number 1's are for purposes, so you could write your character as weaker and train them up to their actual starting stats.

I think there was someone here who did this, but I'm not sure who.

[Guilmon]

That was actually answered in Quick Questions sometime before Page 60.

That was Omni's answer as well. You could RP them as being weaker, but they train up to their posted stats.

[Reece]

I see. Thanks. :-)

EDIT: Now that I think about it, no one has actually answered this part of my question yet:

Does it cost SP to use Transformations and/or Assists in a story sense only (rather than in an actual, mechanical, fight), and if so, how does that work? Is it still 1 SP per post, even though posts in a story will likely last much longer, or is there a specific amount of time I should use if I do end up picking a character like that?

Could anyone who knows how this works help me out?

Thanks. ^_^

[Proto Man]

You can use transformations and super moves as you please in your own personal storylines or in group storylines.

The only time where tabulating SP usage comes into plays is:

1. During a sanctioned fight (aka - a fight that is not predetermined but has rules and a judge) OR
2. During *most* (but not all) sagas that involve one or more people judging. This depends usually on the person(s) in charge, and 9/10s out of ten you'd be privy to this information before hand.

[Reece]

That's great to know, thanks.

[Omni]

I roleplay Samus 'out of suit' as being a powered-down form of sorts.