How Effective is DEF?

[Takanomiya Hijiri]

I've been unable to read much of what goes on in the OV, but I have been keeping track of the Coruscant threads, at least, and a couple of them in particular got me thinking about DEF. Gunther Stein was shot a bunch of times and ended up with quite a lot of gunshot wounds, even if they were mostly shallow. He has 5 DEF.

On the other hand, Harlan Higgs (3 DEF), was supposed to be tortured with a scalpel, but then it broke without even scratching him as soon as the ork holding it tried to cut him. According to Omniphysics (as I understand it, at least) moves are supposed to be more powerful the more drawbacks they have, and scalpels are considerably shorter range and slower than bullets... so in theory, they should be more harmful... at least, if the characters wielding them have equal ATK.

Prior to reading these two accounts the only information I'd seen on DEF was in the Rules, where it says:

3: Astoundingly resilient, the kind of person who would make doctors marvel.
4: Inhumanly resilient, as though wearing armor all over.
5: Mega resilient, most-calibur bullets will not break skin with just one bullet.

So going by that info there, both Gunther & Harlan are clearly correct: I dunno about you, but I'd sure marvel if I were a doctor and I met a patient who was immune to scalpels, and Gunther was definitely hit by a whole lot of bullets, so if we assume that 5 DEF is nothing more than bullet-resistant skin then it's not surprising that he'd be injured quite badly.

From my point of view I'd say I'm probably closer to thinking of it Harlan's way (I briefly mentioned one of my NPCs as being barely affected by lasers when she had 4 DEF). The way I'd interpreted it before reading Gunther's post was that 5 DEF meant being basically unkillable by normal guns. My reasoning was that to a normal human (2 or less DEF) small thorns, pins, or even a sheet of paper could all 'break skin'... whereas a person with 5 DEF would require multiple bullets for the same effect. By my logic trying to kill someone like that with RL-strength guns (3-5 ATK) would be like trying to kill a normal person by throwing paper aeroplanes at them and hoping to give them enough tiny cuts that they'd somehow bleed to death from it.

Clearly, though, that's not the direction Gunther went with it. So now, on the actual point of this thread:
I was hoping that other people who've written about characters with abnormally high DEF (above 2) would tell me how powerful they portrayed the stat as being in their posts?
And maybe even post a link to one if you're able, so I can read through it if I get time?

Thanks!  :fullderp:

[Harlan Higgs]

Harlan also has Survival (which I'm fluffing as his Vampiric Discipline of Fortitude) which basically allows the Prime with the power to take lethal and more wounds with no penalty. Not to mention Stats are basically fluff when it comes to non PvP stories. They're really more important in actual judged fights.

Also, if you were paying attention, Harlan was actually cut open before a certain part in that post. He used Blood Buff (which is an in canon ability of all VtM Vampires that I have not yet purchased on the Omniverse, so unusable in fights as of yet.), and then the scalpel broke against his strengthened body.

[Tearen Wover]

Tearen's default DEF score was always 4, but 'armor' is also a bit of a vague term. I usually went with the following mental chart for DEF comparisons.

0 - Your Nana
1 - You
2 - The Rock
3 - A Rhino
4 - Bomb Suit
5 - Bronze Statue

Granted, as Harlan specified, certain moves can help augment DEF temporarily to ward off direct attacks, especially something as weak as a secondary's tiny tiny knife. In the case of Tearen and Nealaphh, I usually had it that glancing blows or light attacks had negligible effect on him, but enough concentrated firepower in a single place on his body could breach his glass skin and cause him to start bleeding. Furthermore, concussive attacks or getting knocked through the air tended to cause their normal internal damage.

It gets awkward quickly, when you're expected to pad out a fight wielding 3+ ATK against a 2 or lower DEF, since the verbiage of the stats would indicate that a good, solid hit would be enough to drop someone with meager DEF score. In those cases, you have to give the opponent the benefit of the doubt and utilize their other stats to help them survive.

[Takanomiya Hijiri]

He used Blood Buff (which is an in canon ability of all VtM Vampires that I have not yet purchased on the Omniverse, so unusable in fights as of yet.), and then the scalpel broke against his strengthened body.

Ah, okay then. I noticed the bit about fortitude-enhanced skin, but I must have missed that. I had just assumed that you meant his DEF and Survival.

It gets awkward quickly, when you're expected to pad out a fight wielding 3+ ATK against a 2 or lower DEF, since the verbiage of the stats would indicate that a good, solid hit would be enough to drop someone with meager DEF score. In those cases, you have to give the opponent the benefit of the doubt and utilize their other stats to help them survive.

Yeah, it did occur to me that that might be kinda problematic...

Thanks for the list, by the way, I'll keep that in mind in future. ^_^

[Oleander]

Being one of the mentioned candidates, I have a reason behind Stein's lack of lingering wounds.

1: Survival made him capable of standing after taking that much damage.
2: Basic Regeneration, which helped mitigate lasting damage (IE would not bleed out.)
3: 5 Defense, which ups Regeneration, to also help recover from damage - this is why the shallower bullets were being ejected from his body.
4: Assuming these secondaries were low-level thugs with attacks no higher than 2, they could pierce skin but because of A, B and C one bullet was not very impactful.
5: Stein has Foresight, which allows him to adjust himself prior to being fired upon so that bullets miss crucial points that would disable him.
6: The fight ended pretty quick because of poor tactics on his opponents side, and Stein's particular effectiveness against ranged attacks. Had he not had his Palm Shields (designed to deflect projectiles) he would have been in some deep doodoo.

So to summerise; yes. Defense is pretty effective, especially against secondaries who already do slightly subpar damage to Primes. However, Defense's true badassery comes in the form of its compatible powers (much like any other stat) and complimenting moves. I'd say Stein took maybe a dozen bullets, all to nonvital areas, and non from an attacker with higher than a 2 in attack.

[Takanomiya Hijiri]

4: Assuming these secondaries were low-level thugs with attacks no higher than 2, they could pierce skin but because of A, B and C one bullet was not very impactful.

I was actually surprised by how much damage you let them deal. I mean, you do have Regen and Survival, so it's not like it was ever going to kill you, but even so... if they had only 2 ATK then their guns would be significantly less effective than real life ones (even 3 ATK is only 'near' realistic)... and with 5 DEF real life guns should only be able to cut you if they land at least two shots in the same place, so for them it'd likely have to be 4 shots or so to get the same effect. See what I mean?
If you had wanted to write it this way, it probably wouldn't have been unrealistic for your character to just stand there without his shields and laugh at them as they all fired at once and barely even scratched him...

[Oleander]

The shields were actually, in this specific case, a means of offense. He let some of the bullets land without trying to fully dodge them so he could focus on deflecting a few with greater accuracy at the greatest threats. "Best offense is a good defense," right?

[Omni]

Survival doesn't increase DEF, at all, it just means that you won't bleed out from injuries or be impeded the way a normal human would be. For example, a robot or undead person isn't going to bleed out.

Definitely, without a move, Harlan shouldn't be immune to scalpels. He should buy that move if he wants to do that thing in roleplays. That's straight-up against the rules.

Gunther sounds like a more reasonable representation, but it all depends on the strength of the guns/wielder. A rapid fire gun on the Omniverse operated by a secondary isn't going to do much damage to a 5-DEF person unless it's at sustained point blank. A sniper rifle? Yeah, that'll sting, but probably not much against a 5 DEF person, operated by a secondary. Of course, you're free to make stronger secondaries for more challenging antagonists or obstacles.

[Takanomiya Hijiri]

@Gunther - Yeah, that makes sense... I wasn't too sure how effective a purely defensive character would actually be, but you certainly did a lot more damage than I was expecting.  :xd:

@Omni - That's good information to know, thanks.

[Harlan Higgs]

Well now I just feel like a retard.

I've got the OM, I'll write the move up.

[Oleander]

Gunther is "Tactical Defense," not just an iron wall. He knows he'll eventually keel over, so he has means to try and end the fight. His Palm Shield is designed almost specifically against ranged combatants when used in conjunction with his Foresight.

A note about Survival, I use it with high Defense to make it so Gunther isn't hampered by the bullets nearly as bad. Fodder away the pain and survive a popped lung. XD

[Dawnika Snow]

On thing to note is that just because your defense is high, doesn't mean you won't suffer damage. If your up against 5 attack, Im sure that some decently high caliber bullets are gonna hurt. They'd probably pierce skin but wouldn't really go all the way through.

Defense is always against attack, so remember to use this to your advantage when fighting by describing how little or how much another persons moves affect your character based on your opposing stats.