Question about Phasing Power

[Luci]

So, it looks like Yukki MIGHT be coming after Luci, so I guess now is a good time to bring this up.

He's fully equipped with guns and knives and stuff. Luci has the Phasing power.

Here's an excerpt from the phasing power

Be warned that while phasing, you are still vulnerable to energy and elemental-based attacks.

Which seems unfair to Yukki. Just because he chose a pistol instead over a laser gun he shouldn't be penalized.

Here's an exert form Balancing

Due to this balancing effect, two weapons summoned by the same individual that result in the same effect will always have the same strength, regardless of the weapon's mechanism.

and lastly, here's a bit from Moves that really captures the spirit of what I'm trying to get at

Moves, whether offensive or defensive, may not have benefits against particular elements or character types. For example, an attack which pierces water shields, or a shield super-effective against fire. This is because due to the nature of our site, some characters may solely utilise a particular elements like flame or electricity, whereas others may use several elements, or original elements that exist only in their own fiction. We don't want people to pick characters based on perceived advantages and disadvantages, or characters who use many elements to have an advantage over those who are specialised. Therefore, these elements are to be regarded as "fluff". If you want to give your move fodder by saying it only works against evil characters or mechanical characters, that's your choice, but it won't improve the move's efficacy or give you any special advantage, because it is purely fodder.


So, I have some suggestions if anyone thinks this is relevant and maybe feels like updating Phasing.

Suggestion 1: Make Phasing immune to attacks from secondaries, not Primes.
Suggestion 2: Phasing does not make you immune from damage. (Lower OM price?)
Suggestion 3: Phasing makes you immune attacks, energy based or not. (Raise OM cost?)

[Yukki Kazuto]

Did we ever get an actual conversation started about this?

[2B]

This does raise a good point. +1.

[Jade Harley]

Phasing is a power, not a move. Powers are meant to give you advantages in certain situations. Phasing is pretty balanced in terms of the drawbacks it has, like not being able to attack and becoming fatigued over time (risking passing out all the while). Sooo... I don't see a problem.

[Alex]

and lastly, here's a bit from Moves that really captures the spirit of what I'm trying to get at

Moves ...

This little subsection in particular stemmed from people who kept bringing up weakness or strengths from their universe.  Vampires and some other stuff.  

In the instance of Yukki or anyone else, their moves don't give them any special bonus against 'character types' (which ties into the initial remark about weapons you made).  It's the fact that their target selected a Power that, along with giving them a great upside (being incorporeal) also has the downside of making them weak to certain things while they use that power.  This is all very much in line with Omni's love of balancing (in this regard meaning 'positive and negative' rather than 'everything equal', which is probably an important caveat).  Powers liking Shrinking and Disassembly also have similar downsides -- implied or explicit.  

So, I have some suggestions if anyone thinks this is relevant and maybe feels like updating Phasing

...

Phasing isn't designed as a combat power, which is why the individual using it cannot attack while incorporeal.  I personally wouldn't support any change that complicated what I personally thing is a balance Power that's very useful for the people who take it.  A combat alternative (without the downsides of Phasing) might be Teleportation.

[Yukki Kazuto]

What I've learned from all this is that I need to invest in an energy weapon at some point.

[Schwi Dola]

At SPD 10 as the power description suggests you can instantly dodge any and all physical attacks. So a person with no energy moves can't touch someone with SPD 10 and phasing. Even with Super Moves.

Throw foresight on this phaser for good measure so that they always intuitively know what attack is coming and what kind of attack it is so that they can dodge without needing to read the enemy.

[Alex]

Your hypothetical situation has the potential for enough variables to make heads spin.

[Schwi Dola]

You can get 10 SPD exactly with a simple power up tier 2 making you immune to the super moves of some players with phasing.

[Sarah Kerrigan]

At SPD 10 as the power description suggests you can instantly dodge any and all physical attacks. So a person with no energy moves can't touch someone with SPD 10 and phasing. Even with Super Moves.

Throw foresight on this phaser for good measure so that they always intuitively know what attack is coming and what kind of attack it is so that they can dodge without needing to read the enemy.

Pretty sure Super moves get to flat-out nope even powers like Phasing. It's super defence or nada. 
That and I'm pretty sure keeping phasing on enough to dodge every move all throughout the fight would require an immense drain - you likely wouldn't get away with that, stamina-wise.

[Jade Harley]

Exactly. ^

The drain part, anyway. Balancing!

[Sans]

At SPD 10 as the power description suggests you can instantly dodge any and all physical attacks. So a person with no energy moves can't touch someone with SPD 10 and phasing. Even with Super Moves.

Throw foresight on this phaser for good measure so that they always intuitively know what attack is coming and what kind of attack it is so that they can dodge without needing to read the enemy.

SPD 10 basically says that the transition from corpreal to incorpreal and vice-versa is near instantaneous, which still leaves an opening for attacks to get through, if only marginal. Might not sound like much, but you never know. Fights work weird.

Also, I highly doubt Phasing allows you to bypass super moves. I just can't see that being the case ever. It might be used to lessen the damage, but it won't outright negate it.

While this sounds all well and good and everything, please remember that a phaser also cannot attack while incorporeal. SO, sure, said phaser can dodge every incoming attack and know what attack it is as well, but said phaser also can't harm the person attacking them. Also, the rapid transitioning between the two phases would surely tire them out as well, and if they haven't attacked prior to that, then any attacks they made then would hardly do much of anything if the moves in question require concentration and them being, you know, not tired?

In the end, Phasing is still not OP. Can't be hurt, but can't hurt, and it tires you out.

[Luci]

Ok, cool discussion, but I got two mod answers. I think this discussion has probably happened within mod conversations before. "But power X gives and advantage against Y" "Because it's supposed too. It's a power, not a move."

[Schwi Dola]

At SPD 10 as the power description suggests you can instantly dodge any and all physical attacks. So a person with no energy moves can't touch someone with SPD 10 and phasing. Even with Super Moves.

Throw foresight on this phaser for good measure so that they always intuitively know what attack is coming and what kind of attack it is so that they can dodge without needing to read the enemy.

Pretty sure Super moves get to flat-out nope even powers like Phasing. It's super defence or nada. 
That and I'm pretty sure keeping phasing on enough to dodge every move all throughout the fight would require an immense drain - you likely wouldn't get away with that, stamina-wise.

When Super Moves became stats affected they also became dodgable by means other than Super Defense. Its supposed to be fairly hard, but a near instant flat immunity to physical attacks is as overpowered as it sounds. A small effort cost is negligible.


And the point is that it unfairly affects players based on the 'fluff' of their moves as per the Rules that state choices like 'element' doesn't matter. Except that is does for Phasing. If you are 100% Physical Elemental, Phasing works against all your stuff, or if just your best stuff, your super moves, are 100% Physical, they can dodge what matters.

[Jade Harley]

No.

[Sans]

When Super Moves became stats affected they also became dodgable by means other than Super Defense. Its supposed to be fairly hard, but a near instant flat immunity to physical attacks is as overpowered as it sounds. A small effort cost is negligible.

A Super Attack or Super Defense will be effective regardless of your stats, but will be slightly boosted by the relevant stats.

Taken straight from the rules page. Super Moves are not that easily swayed, and are always going to be effective no matter what. They are stats boosted in the sense that, depending on how high a certain stat is, your Super ATK can be more powerful than someone elses. You can't outright dodge or negate one with a Super Defense.

And the point is that it unfairly affects players based on the 'fluff' of their moves as per the Rules that state choices like 'element' doesn't matter. Except that is does for Phasing. If you are 100% Physical Elemental, Phasing works against all your stuff, or if just your best stuff, your super moves, are 100% Physical, they can dodge what matters.

In the end, they will still tire out and be forced out of it. But even if they can't, what difference does it make? You can have high-ass stats, but if you write like shit, then the chance you'll get your ass kicked is substantially increased. People can write their characters getting their asses handed to them and then win the fight at the end if they write well enough.

So, in this case, say a character is 100% physical attack based and fights a phaser. Here's what I, being a creative writer, might do in this hypothetical situation. I'd do one or more of these things.

A. Flee the fuck away.
B. Use the environment to slow down or perhaps even outright injure the phaser if its energy or elementally based. Water, fire, laser weapons in coruscant, magic stuff in Camelot, etc.
C. Get ass handed to me so I can focus on character/story/etc.

One doesn't have to be able to knock out something that is essentially a ghost in order to beat said ghost.

[Schwi Dola]

While true Sans, that doesn't mean it doesn't violate the basic rules about moves and balance. Replace Phasing in that argument with keeping Elemental weaknesses and resistances on characters. 'Its all RP based so that the fact that someone has all elements isn't a true advantage'.

Except that it was decided that elemental bonuses/penalties would be an issue. So I guess what I'm getting at is that the basic premise of the Omniverse, to remove elemental bonuses/penalties so as to not create an undue advantage/disadvantage, counters the argument that combat is decided by RP alone. If it were true there would be no need for moves to not have elements matter. Phasing is somehow an exception to this rule.

I would want why its balanced on phasing to include elemental bonus/penalty but not anywhere else, and if it can't be explained than for it to be changed. All other notes in this thread have not addressed this, the central problem to phasing.

[ElFailzalot]

Okay, let me bring up another point of view here.

While true that, in the hypothetical scenario of someone having 10+ SPD and Foresight could effectively dodge just about everything physically-based, you know who else could dodge just about everything physically based, with 10+ SPD and Foresight? People with Burst Movement and/or Super Speed. Or Teleportation. Or Disassemble. Or Malleability. And with BM/SS, Teleportation and Malleability, you're not even still vulnerable to energy-based attacks, you can just flat-out avoid attacks entirely. Does that also make them unbalanced? No. Not really. Not at all. Because they have their own downsides.

Phasing being balanced by having, as you put it, elemental bonuses and penalties is precisely why it's balanced. It's balanced in the sense that it's not just a 'get out of damage free' card, which would make it completely and utterly broken as a power. As is, you're still effected by something, which, even if you don't have moves or means to do as such yourself, just...get creative with your environment, as Sans said. Or wait until they drop phasing and counter attack. In the event they are using a T2 power up to get that much SPD to make Phasing effective, they won't be able to do it long due to the SP drain of the transformation, unless they're of quite a high level. And at that point, you're probably of at least a similar level, unless you made a grave error. So the simple solution is to, like, maybe...use super attacks, to force them to take damage anyway, or use their own super defenses and eat through SP even faster, neutering their massive speed increase and phasing use? Or just fight smart, and wait until they exhaust themselves from using phasing too much and then counter when they're done.

Also, do keep in mind the other benefits of Phasing, not solely limited to combat and avoiding attacks here. Being able to pass through walls/the ground/other creatures has a host of other advantages, both on and off the combat field, but as has been said before it's not intended as a combat power, hence the relatively long time to phase in the first place without high enough SPD. It's balanced very well, not in the 'everything is equal' sense that most often comes with the word 'balanced' but in the 'everything can be countered' sense.

[Schwi Dola]

Its not balanced because the elemental effects create undue bias based on the fluff of attacks. The parts that have no balancing act to begin with. A laser gun and a flintlock pistol and a bazooka are essentially the same, except when it comes to phasing. Teleporting, Burst Movement, anything else does not discriminate based on the description of moves. Its effect is the same whether or not your opponent is using energy moves.

And it doesn't even cover things that would be entirely in character but not descriptive of them because in the Omniverse everything is supposed to be equal. Like in some Canons, Magically enchanted things can hit ghosts. They are not energy or elemental except that they have an inherent magical quality, a +1 Longsword in DnD.

Move descriptions are supposed to be entirely beside the point. But they are half the point when it comes to phasing.


Players shouldn't have to consider buying an entirely new move that would allow them to counter a little used power. Or consider that adding energy to all of their moves from the get go would make them functionally better and it wouldn't cost them anything. Someone who uses fire with all of their moves at all times is fundamentally stronger than an Earth Bender who uses entirely physical moves, because the Fire Bender can hit phasing at all times. But in all other situations the Fire and Earth Bender are identical, even say one of them vs a Water Bender.

Lets have two characters that have exactly 1300 OM spent with the same stats 3 3 3 1. 1000 for Physical Strength. The other 300 for a single move of any description. If in ANY situation one character has a statistical advantage over the other, there is an issue with whats causing it. That is phasing, the problem. Let's say character 1 chooses a staff weapon as his weapon. Character 2 chooses a lightsaber. The light saber wielder can hit phasing targets without issue, the staff cannot. So the lightsaber is stronger, even though they are supposed to be equal.


And this could be taken farther because phasing can be wrapped into moves. Why couldn't someone make a Phasing Shell bazooka shot? This Move bypasses physical defenses because it phases until impact. But Energy defenses can stop it.

At the same time, my character Desco should be able to block it regardless because phasing shouldn't bypass a magical creature. She is inherently laced with energy, so phasing wouldn't affect her physical attacks.

See the problems that start to build up?

[ElFailzalot]

It's balanced very well, not in the 'everything is equal' sense that most often comes with the word 'balanced' but in the 'everything can be countered' sense.

I'm bringing this up again, because it illustrates in one sentence what I'm about to try and point out in more detail.


A laser gun, a flintlock pistol and a bazooka are all the same. Yes, okay, they sure are. Fundamentally, they all do the same thing, shoot at range and make things hurt. When it comes to phasing, that suddenly isn't the case. Right? .....uh, yeah, kinda. In order to keep the power balanced, it has downsides, just like every other power. The other powers all have the same effect regardless of move descriptions because...that's their intended purpose. You're still there, just moving quickly/disappearing and reappearing somewhere else/whatever instead of turning into a ghost. The powers work differently, that's how it's intended.

See, that's cool. That's fine, in those original canons where those things happen. Except that's deliberately not the case here, because Omni (the character, and the person who made the site) said otherwise.

And no, players shouldn't have to consider buying an entirely new move to counter one specific power. Because they don't have to. Use your environment. Wait out for them to unphase and try to attack you. Run away. Get creative, and don't just beat your face against a wall, or explicitly buy moves to counter one specific scenario that is, as said, not very used.

And yes, sure, like you said, someone who uses fire with all their moves can damage someone who's phasing at all times. If they can hit them. Just like fighting someone who's not using phasing. And anyone who's fast enough to effectively use the 'almost instantaneous' part of phasing as a real attempt at defense is probably going to be more than fast enough to effectively dodge conventionally, and use more energy conservative measures in the first place. Especially against someone who has the capacity to damage them either way.

And yes, again, in all other cases a bolt of lightning, or a spear of rock, or a fireball, or a gust of wind or a bullet or a thrown javelin or a beam of focused light are all the same, and their effects are more or less mechanically identical. Great, super, none of them are any stronger over the other, none of them have any specific advantage over any of the other moves. They're all ranged things that hit and do something, usually painful, to the thing they hit. Hey, sometimes that might be something incorporeal that they just pass through. That's just a fact of the omniverse, and a part of the balance of it. Some people are going to be able to ghost through certain attacks and objects and exhaust themselves to gain that slight advantage, some people are going to be able to damage them regardless of whether they ghost or not.

Nothing is perfect, everything can be countered.