Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline

[2B]

So, Alexyana and I have been wondering about this whole Underverse thing quite a bit lately, so we decided we would write a post about it together.

First, we want to state that we want this to be a reasonable discussion regarding the topic, not an argument nor a fight. If you cannot keep it civil and mature, or you feel that you’re getting too emotionally involved, we kindly request that you would take a breather and come back later.

The Issue

It has been said multiple times that the only way out is through Diablo himself by becoming his lackey. In addition to that, the quest line itself requires a 20 - 40k word amount of work.

Quoting Proto Mouse on that, (Or sources for these statements)
here
and
here.
For the lazy, there are quotes inside the spoiler.
[spoiler]

I hate to be the bad guy, but unless an additional quest is released or the current quest description is changed/expanded, Diablo is the only way out.

You are free to do whatever else you'd like to in the Underverse, but the only individual with a way out of the Underverse is Diablo.

@Nealaphh - No. All Tyrael can do is act as a guide for primes. He'll ultimately tell the prime that only Diablo has the route out. Please note it says 'He can point you in the right direction.' That direction? Diablo.

@Pendragon - You have to become his lackey. This is the Prime Evil we're talking about. He's not going to just let you out because you got bloody.

There's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the Omniverse.

[/spoiler]

But we must ask. Is this really how it should be?
While we completely understand, that much like Proto said, there's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse, we feel that the Banishment stops being a “punishment” for the character (an interesting and challenging storyline to have) and becomes a punishment to the player instead.

The 20-40k word requirement is a big obstacle to pass. It takes a comparatively long time to scrap together, especially if you’re adamant on writing an enjoyable story out of it. This however isn’t the issue in our opinion. In our opinion, the issue is the choice you’re forced to make.
If your only option to escape the Underverse is to make a decision that you know your character wouldn’t make (For example, joining Diablo) you will have no motivation to write the quest out to begin with.

Of course, characters that would willingly join Diablo, are exempt from this as joining Him and His army would be their goal. Good characters however, are at risk of being completely destroyed if they don’t go through a major change because like said, the majority of them wouldn’t make the decision to join Diablo, to begin with.


This would mean the player has to choose between:
1. Accepting their fate and leaving the character in Underverse forever.
2. OOC:ly deciding to have the character make a decision that they would never make, just to get them out. (Becoming Diablo’s subordinate)
3. Trying to lie to Diablo, and if the character escapes and gets banished again (which they likely would, as mentioned in the reasoning above), stay in the Underverse forever, as Diablo wouldn’t likely let them out due to lying already the last time.
4. Resetting the character.


Arguments broken down to a list can be found below. This also includes things not mentioned in the above post, so please do take a peek.

[spoiler]- 250 OM for a Banishment Circle is really cheap. Usually the fight preceding the Banishment alone is sufficient to cover for that expense. In comparison to other consumables, it seems very powerful for its price.
Just as an example: for 250 OM you can get one pill or an Elixir, which mildly raise your chances of victory in a battle that you can fail even with that item being used. The item is consumed regardless of the battle’s outcome, whereas your Banishment Circle is only consumed after the battle if you win it.

- The Underverse forces you to take a decision - become Diablo’s subordinate, go for a betrayal and risk never being able to leave the Underverse again, should you be banished a second time (Diablo doesn’t exactly seem like the forgiving individual), or stay down there. The only other option is to reset your character and start out fresh, which to most people is not an option.
This decision severely cuts into the liberty of roleplaying your character the way you want them to, down to the point of making you entirely unable to play them.

- The risk of being banished a second time is relatively high. Many people will know that you have been banished IC:ly (as a Banishment typically is the result of a faction war or a Bounty-Hunt, in the former case the faction members would know about this, in the latter case the Bounty-boards would display the person as banished), and that’s without counting characters who use Insight.
Thus if you escape the Underverse, there’s a high chance that you are Diablo’s servant now - more than enough reason to banish you again. Plus, the faction you were banished or Bounty-ed by is probably not going to forget about you. This could also spread from them, to the other factions, turning you into a target.
The Banisher might also be afraid of you wanting revenge on them, and thus take action before you can, banishing you again.

- The Underverse doesn’t have many people for you to play with, so there’s little reason to stay down there and continue playing. There are no quests outside of the one about escaping it, no Void Portals, Artifacts or anything else.
This is likely due to the fact that the Underverse is meant to be most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse - it makes sense ICly -, but at this point it’s not making for a “challenging” place to play, it’s cutting into the fun of playing.[/spoiler]

Proposed solutions

An alternative quest line involving Tyrael which helps you get out. This could be more difficult than the Diablo questline, with 30k-40k words being the requirement.

A Void Quest - perhaps involving a one-way door to the Void, to prevent people from visiting the Underverse whenever they want to.

An alternative questline about your character obtaining a one-time Consumable that is the opposite to a Banishment Circle, allowing your character to unbanish themselves. For instance there could be an “illegal” arena fight similar to Diablo’s tournament with an Anti banishment Circle being put out as prize, or Diablo could have such items at hand which he uses to unbanish Primes, which can be stolen.

A questline in a similar vein to Lord of the Rings, where Frodo, Sam and Gollum were able to enter Mordor through a “sneak path”. It involves finding a way around the Black Gate into Camelot , guarded by an extremely powerful demon that must somehow be defeated - which would likely be a group quest like the Vasty Deep Void Quest, rather than for a single person.



Finally, we would like to thank you for making it through the post. Feedback is very much appreciated, but remember: please keep it civil.

[Undyne]

Just leaving my reply here to get this thread onto my watch-list, and confirm that Arthuria and I have discussed this together

[Okor]

20k words isn't too much. It's a lengthy storyline to be sure, but it's doable.

However, the idea that Diablo is the only way out is worrying. While I don't like the idea of Tyrael hanging out and getting primes out of the Underverse, an alternate possibility would be a good idea, like stealing an artifact from Diablo, setting up some kind of reverse-banishment circle using the essence of several demons, etc.

[Corporal Light]

I pretty much agree with Okor here. 20k isn't THAT much. If you write like me, you can land that in 20 posts or less. But the fact that Diablo is the only way out not only completely limits the choices for characters (especially if they don't bow to authority quite as easily, making them being Diablo's subordinate out of character,) it is also a prime example of "story driving the characters" and not "characters driving the story."

I'll use Ballad as an example because I play him and he's an easy example to use. Say someone banished him, and he finds out the only way out is to basically do something he'd never do: try to play nice with an all-powerful demon. Unless something has happened prior to the Underverse to change his mind on things, anyone would be able to guess what Ballad would most likely do in a situation like this. Hint: It's not playing nice.

Personally, there should be other ways out. It shouldn't JUST be "you have to be Diablo's butt-buddy, haha." It should also have more unconventional questlines, like the aforementioned thievery and Mordor quest lines. Potentially reward players for doing stuff only their character would do, even if it means they might get fucked in the process (like forming a rebellion by using the nobles of the Underverse, for instance.)

[2B]

I pretty much agree with Okor here. 20k isn't THAT much. If you write like me, you can land that in 20 posts or less. But the fact that Diablo is the only way out not only completely limits the choices for characters (especially if they don't bow to authority quite as easily, making them being Diablo's subordinate out of character,) it is also a prime example of "story driving the characters" and not "characters driving the story."

I'll use Ballad as an example because I play him and he's an easy example to use. Say someone banished him, and he finds out the only way out is to basically do something he'd never do: try to play nice with an all-powerful demon. Unless something has happened prior to the Underverse to change his mind on things, anyone would be able to guess what Ballad would most likely do in a situation like this. Hint: It's not playing nice.

Personally, there should be other ways out. It shouldn't JUST be "you have to be Diablo's butt-buddy, haha." It should also have more unconventional questlines, like the aforementioned thievery and Mordor quest lines. Potentially reward players for doing stuff only their character would do, even if it means they might get fucked in the process (like forming a rebellion by using the nobles of the Underverse, for instance.)

I quite like these ideas too ^^ But yeah, like we mentioned, the 20-40k isn't the issue in our opinion either.
Just something we thought should be acknowledged, that it's there ^^

[Proto Man]

I'm not arguing with anyone, and I have my own opinions relating to the questline.

What I think might be worth considering is that Diablo made the Underverse. If there is an actual exit somewhere, do you really think he's just going to let Public Enemy Number 1 have access to it? ( I mean, there's a reason why there isn't a Void Gate quest in Coruscant or Camelot.)

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that if Tyrael knew of a physical exit, he'd do anything in his power to destroy it. This is the same guy who sacrificed his powers and relegated himself to eternal suffering at the hands of his rival to ensure he was trapped in the Underverse.

[Undyne]

I'm not arguing with anyone, and I have my own opinions relating to the questline.

What I think might be worth considering is that Diablo made the Underverse. If there is an actual exit somewhere, do you really think he's just going to let Public Enemy Number 1 have access to it? ( I mean, there's a reason why there isn't a Void Gate quest in Coruscant or Camelot.)

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that if Tyrael knew of a physical exit, he'd do anything in his power to destroy it. This is the same guy who sacrificed his powers and relegated himself to eternal suffering at the hands of his rival to ensure he was trapped in the Underverse.

Physical or Void exits would obviously need some sort of reasoning as to why they exist and why they're not closed. But something like a physical exit guarded by a very powerful demon could exist with Diablo's knowledge because he can't send his subordinates out for any reason, and believes that the guardian he has put there would be sufficient to prevent Primes from leaving. Tyreal could be unable to close it due to not being strong enough to confront the demon there.

I'll admit though that it'd be a difficult thing to balance.

[2B]

I'm not arguing with anyone, and I have my own opinions relating to the questline.

What I think might be worth considering is that Diablo made the Underverse. If there is an actual exit somewhere, do you really think he's just going to let Public Enemy Number 1 have access to it? ( I mean, there's a reason why there isn't a Void Gate quest in Coruscant or Camelot.)

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that if Tyrael knew of a physical exit, he'd do anything in his power to destroy it. This is the same guy who sacrificed his powers and relegated himself to eternal suffering at the hands of his rival to ensure he was trapped in the Underverse.

Out of curiousity, I must ask.

If we are talking about logicalness, why is Diablo able to bring back Primes, but hasn't done so with his subordinates before?
I do agree with Yana, that such thing might be difficult to balance, but at the same time I don't think it should be ruled out, due to the fact that in my personal opinion it is not worth it to have something that is a thing the players do not find enjoyable, and has a high chance to cause people to abandon their characters, simply for the sake of weaving story. After all, roleplaying should be about fun, and forcing players to have their characters make decisions, that wouldn't be made by the characters in the first place, just to be able to continue writing as them isn't fun.

What I mean, is that the player is forced into a decision: "Do I break my character's character, or do I leave them into the Underverse?"
For example, Arthuria wouldn't make a pact with Diablo, just to get out. For me to decide OOC:ly that she would make that decision, would go completely against the character.

What do you think?

[Roger Smith]

If I can, allow me to weigh in on something from my perspective here.

You keep going on and on about becoming Diablo's subordinate and such, and how it's something that some characters (maybe even most characters) would never do. But the thing is, what exactly is it that becoming Diablo's subordinate entails, exactly? What is it that happens when you hand out that "yes" to the big bad evil man and he sends you back topside? For all we know, since no one (IC, at least) has actually returned from the Underverse (that we're aware of), becoming "an agent of his (Diablo's) unfathomable schemes", as taken straight from the Underverse escape quest....could just mean the fact he's sending you back.

Making a message "there IS a way out of the Underverse." Of course it could very well be more than that. It could also be only that. We don't know at this juncture. (Aside from Proto and Omni, maybe.)

And even disregarding all of that, it's already been said you can lie and try to trick the big man, and assuming you do, there's no guarantee he would find out you did so. It wouldn't be that much of a surprise if he DID, but again, there's no guarantee that he would, once again making that worry a moot point beyond speculation purposes.

There's also the worry you posed earlier about once you DO escape the Underverse, people that banished you finding out. Of course that's a worry, but that's the nature of the beast. They're going to be scared/curious/amazed/terrified/enraged/whatever that you escaped, of course, but just as there's every chance they might decide to take the jump and try to banish or get rid of you again before you can take any revenge you might have planned, there's every chance they might be afraid it wouldn't do anything again.

Especially because escaping the Underverse every subsequent time is easier than the first, since you already know the way out.

And let me just toss out an opinion on the subject of a physical way out, such as through a one-way void gate or the like...if there is one, who is to say it isn't in Diablo's palace/castle/whatever? If he did know of it, I imagine he'd keep it close at hand, and not hand off guarding it to any of his subordinates since he is, quite literally, the most powerful thing in the entire Underverse.

These are just my personal thoughts.

[Simon]

This just occurred to me recently, but...
Considering our nature as Primes (and the words spoken by Omni in his first big reveal), couldn't we just [spoiler]make a way out ourselves, given enough OM?[/spoiler]

[Gilgamesh]

This just occurred to me recently, but...
Considering our nature as Primes (and the words spoken by Omni in his first big reveal), couldn't we just [spoiler]make a way out ourselves, given enough OM?[/spoiler]

1. Your character doesn't know that
2. Diablo was only able to do that cause he's one of the biggest and baddest Primes in the Omniverse

Edit: Also letting out people from the Underverse is a bad idea

[Roger Smith]

This just occurred to me recently, but...
Considering our nature as Primes (and the words spoken by Omni in his first big reveal), couldn't we just [spoiler]make a way out ourselves, given enough OM?[/spoiler]

1. Your character doesn't know that
2. Diablo was only able to do that cause he's one of the biggest and baddest Primes in the Omniverse

Edit: Also letting out people from the Underverse is a bad idea

In an addendum to this, there is this to keep in mind, from the "What to do after you've joined" topic:

Try to make a mount or vehicle
It works! Though it can never seem to get beyond about 80mph. It takes about five minutes.
Try to make new clothes
It works! Though it takes at least three minutes.
Try to heal
It works, although very slowly. Resting normally achieves the same effect.
Try to open a portal
It seems like it would take reserves of omnilium far beyond what you currently have.

That said, making a portal or a way out of the Underverse, with enough OM, would be POSSIBLE. But no one on this site, as far as player characters go, would have anywhere near enough OM to do so.

[Ganondorf]

The way I always saw things is that the quest is the officially documented way out of the Omniverse, but that any sufficiently compelling story would also work. For example, if I get Banished, I already have a story line in mind for my escape, and it has nothing to do with fighting in a coliseum, or being someone's lackey.

[Magus]

The way I always saw things is that the quest is the officially documented way out of the Omniverse, but that any sufficiently compelling story would also work. For example, if I get Banished, I already have a story line in mind for my escape, and it has nothing to do with fighting in a coliseum, or being someone's lackey.

Would that work, though? I've heard people argue that the documented way is the only way. It would be nice to know before investing 20k words into something that might not apply. I know you used to be staff et al, but it would be really nice to have some kind of confirmation that this is, indeed, possible.

[Amaterasu]

The way I always saw things is that the quest is the officially documented way out of the Omniverse, but that any sufficiently compelling story would also work. For example, if I get Banished, I already have a story line in mind for my escape, and it has nothing to do with fighting in a coliseum, or being someone's lackey.

Would that work, though? I've heard people argue that the documented way is the only way. It would be nice to know before investing 20k words into something that might not apply. I know you used to be staff et al, but it would be really nice to have some kind of confirmation that this is, indeed, possible.

Proto was quite clear on this point - Arthuria's referencing the threads where he mentioned this in the first post. There is currently no way out of the Underverse that doesn't go through Diablo.

[Belle]

20-40k words is fine. Restricting that to a single kind of story is not. I kind of assumed, like Ganon, that there were other not-explicitly-listed ways to go about it.

250 OM does seem stupid-cheap, but 1) you only have to do that 20k storyline once, after which it's much easier, and 2) it's not like it stops you from getting stronger while in the Underverse. The main issue, I feel, is that players feel restricted in their choices once there thanks to the assumed limitations of the options described, which can result in an inactivity spiral.

Personally, if I ever get banished, I'm going Disgaea on it. Or Home for Infinite Losers.

[Tom Marvolo Riddle]

Coming from the perspective of my characters. Ururu would rather be consigned to oblivion than work for Diablos in any authentic fashion. She was going to risk death and being hunted the rest of her life to escape having to do the things humans do to other humans in her home universe. So I'd probably have to kiss her goodbye until another quest option opened up.

For Tom? He'd want out, he do what he needs to do to get out. Then again he also believes he could eventually consume all of diablo's power if given enough time or at the very least consume a good chunk of the underverse so he can escape under his own power. If that fails, shake hands with Diablo and when he escapes, the person who banished him will wish they were banished instead. Tom will not let them ever go, and he will make them curse their own name and that of their for ever siring them to life. That will only be the start. I imagine every thread would need an M rating.

[Sasuke Uchiha]

The way I always saw things is that the quest is the officially documented way out of the Omniverse, but that any sufficiently compelling story would also work. For example, if I get Banished, I already have a story line in mind for my escape, and it has nothing to do with fighting in a coliseum, or being someone's lackey.

I had the same impression as you, however, I found that we were both wrong. (Overruled by an admin) The only way out is to pal around with Diablo as it says in the quest.

[Belle]

That's dumb.

Greg, change that.

[Weiss Schnee]

yeah, to be honest, as counter points to the ideas regarding Tyrael:
As it works now - OOC and IC - the current system seems to more support evil people getting out of the underverse while good people are stuck there. OOC it's a huge problem, but IC this is also the answer to why Tyrael might maintain any exits he knows of or at least not destroy them. He doesn't want the underverse to just be filled with heroes while the rotten run amok in diablo's name.

Alternately from "knowing of an exit" though, it could simply be that Tyrael's quest involves creating a (One-way, one-person) exit with his help. Since a created temporary way out sounds more like something he'd offer and would work better balancewise.