De-Cluttering the Move threads

[Ururu Kyuuei]

Sooo, what I propose is something that will make move workshop and move approval a bit less of a cluster of one thread and something a bit more stream lined where things don't get left behind and there is a visible sign showing when someone's stuff hasn't been touched in a while.

A Registration Forum of sorts.

Just need one forum really, people post their a thread for their moves, list in the topic either [Open] or [Approval] since they'll be editing it themselves it shouldn't be much of a problem. In Open we treat the threads like the work shop. We can ask questions and have a proper discussion without cluttering the thread up since the first post will remain the most important one which contains the moves in their most final form needing to be reviewed so all major edits happen there anyways.

When enough people have signed off or when the creator feels ready, they can switch their thread to [Approval] and then its the staff's turn. This gives the staff the advantage of having the communities feed back and thought process that went into the changes. Once approved, the thread can simply be archived in a sub forum.

This will also give the community an idea of who hasn't been looked at in a while as the oldest untouched thread will be at the bottom of the forum.

[Minato Namikaze]

The whole point of leaving move approval to the Moderators/ admins (and of appropriate level when the new staff changes come in) is because it's a tricky job, it may seem easy but, more often than not, Mods are working through moves rather than simply just approving them.

My evidence of this is when a move was being discussed in the chat box earlier and people mistook it as needing the debuff proficiency because of a delayed attack at the end of the move. They saw it as a debuff even though it had none of the lingering qualities that a debuff would require.

It seems like an interesting Idea, but I don't think it'd help solve anything. It'll probably just be the same as it is now.

[Black Mage]

Before I say anything else, I'd like to thank the staff for doing what they're doing in the Move Approval thread, especially Minato and Protoman who seem to be shouldering the majority of the load at the moment. However, with that said from what I have personally observed their are two main reasons the move thread gets cluttered.

1) The staff doesn't seem to have a "First post first serve" policy, but rather the opposite, dealing with the most recent post and then working backwards in the thread. If a staffer only has time to deal with the last eight out of ten people who people who posted moves those first two people who have been waiting the longest will think they're skipped, and subsequently re-post their moves. Due to the lack of a "First post First Serve" policy this also happens if anybody has gone a page or two or three without being attended too.

2)If a staffer is in the middle of his or her move approval "rounds" and posts on a member's moves saying "Hey, this here and here needs work" or "This here and here needs clarification" and that member posts back while the staffer is still doing his/her rounds in general that staffer will attend to that post first before going to other moves yet to be dealt with, which can create a series of clutter between two people posting between one another doing edits while others, who have often been waiting for their moves to be attended to longer, are still waiting for theirs to be attended to.


If a "First come first serve" policy with move approval is enacted then staff can also fairly mandate that members can't re-post their moves, just wait until they're attended to. Furthermore member on member commentary could also be removed, we have a Move Creation Workshop thread for that sort of activity. In pages 30-35 of the Move Approval Thread over 20 posts are either members bumping their skipped move submissions or talking about other people's moves and debating the rules. Over a fifth of those posts wouldn't have been posted with first come first serve and no members having to bump their threads or debate rules with other members.

Again, I have a lot of respect for what the staffers are doing. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of thankless work, and it's all on a volunteer basis. But I do think there is room for improvement in how the move approval thread is dealt with.

[Minato Namikaze]

I would just like to point out that this whole 'Working backwards' thing was my fault. I did that once and that is what led to this whole problem.

What you have to understand is that this was at a very crucial time for me, I had just become staff and I was trying to get the easier stuff done first, and It just so happened that the easier Approvals was the most recently posted stuff.

When we approach Move approvals, we try to do it in bulk. And we try to start with the moves that haven't been looked at that we think is the oldest post. Unfortunately it seems like there were older posts that hadn't been looked at and we missed them. We're only human and this happens sometimes.

[Ururu Kyuuei]

When we approach Move approvals, we try to do it in bulk. And we try to start with the moves that haven't been looked at that we think is the oldest post. Unfortunately it seems like there were older posts that hadn't been looked at and we missed them. We're only human and this happens sometimes.

Unfortunately as members were not really that coordinated which is why I brought up the ability turn one thread into the other since they'd be personalized to that particular review request already. Saves everyone a bit of headache and allows for a degree of documentation rather than this amalgam of information and struggling (constantly) on part of the reviewed person trying to process and ignore the right stuff.

Its just plain confusing.

[Omni]

Discussed with the Archangel and I think it might be a bit much, for now, but after we implement the new staffers I'll keep an eye on the topic and consider it. Honestly as a staffer I find it easier to go through the topic in straightforward chronological order rather than clicking through a bunch of topics. Sometimes mistakes get made, and things get skipped, but I refer you to this topic

[Ururu Kyuuei]

Discussed with the Archangel and I think it might be a bit much, for now, but after we implement the new staffers I'll keep an eye on the topic and consider it. Honestly as a staffer I find it easier to go through the topic in straightforward chronological order rather than clicking through a bunch of topics. Sometimes mistakes get made, and things get skipped, but I refer you to this topic

Alright. Its not so much the staffers but I have a hideous time keeping track of my posts with everyone else's stuff especially where my approved stuff is since there's no real record beyond a post buried under posts. Half the mistakes I've made have been due to having to requote my posts and I end up missing something due to it being spread out between five things.

[Thaal Sinestro]

When there are more people handling more tasks it'll be much easier to keep a more vigilant eye on the thread.

[Sasuke Uchiha]

Discussed with the Archangel and I think it might be a bit much, for now, but after we implement the new staffers I'll keep an eye on the topic and consider it. Honestly as a staffer I find it easier to go through the topic in straightforward chronological order rather than clicking through a bunch of topics. Sometimes mistakes get made, and things get skipped, but I refer you to this topic

Alright. Its not so much the staffers but I have a hideous time keeping track of my posts with everyone else's stuff especially where my approved stuff is since there's no real record beyond a post buried under posts. Half the mistakes I've made have been due to having to requote my posts and I end up missing something due to it being spread out between five things.

I'm'a tell you like Protoman told me:

Search function OP <_<

[Ururu Kyuuei]

Searching in a thread still has many key words being illegal searches even when that thread is unlikely to even more than one or two instances. Try technique or underverse within search inside a topic won't work

Searching Ururu produces way more results so unless a technique really named something interesting...

Well the points is maybe I should just assign a unique identifier code to each Primary post or something but that's a bit extreme. But alas we'll see how it plays out.

[Sasuke Uchiha]

When you search your name, you get all the posts that belong to you. I am sorry if you post a lot(You should be re-quoting when you reply, so it shouldn't be that big of an issue), but how is this any different than having a thread where all your move posts are located? (Which was your suggestion)

Searching your name in the move approval or having your own thread in which all of your move posts can be found is literally the exact same thing...

Edit: Also, you make a ton of moves before you are ready for them. If you saved them for approval for when you were actually ready to pay for them, you wouldn't have this problem. (You've submitted more moves than anyone near your join date, but you only have 3 moves paid for. You are creating your own clutter to get around. =/)

[Sasuke Uchiha]

Double posts because double editing is worse!

Now that I think about it, we should implement a, "Must purchase as soon as approved" rule. If you are not ready for the move you are applying for, then effectively you are bogging everything down for the people who are ready to use the moves they are applying for. They are the ones who need help first, as they intend to use their moves in an upcoming post, not you. This could help to clear the clutter out a bit I feel.

If you are worried you may lose the great idea you have, write it down on a word doc... or submit it to the move workshop, but not in the Move approval until you are ready, that way you don't get in front of people who need their moves for their current r/p.

[Ururu Kyuuei]

Edit: Also, you make a ton of moves before you are ready for them. If you saved them for approval for when you were actually ready to pay for them, you wouldn't have this problem. (You've submitted more moves than anyone near your join date, but you only have 3 moves paid for. You are creating your own clutter to get around. =/)

Hardly, 4/5 are approved, only one had any real discourse which was from a miscommunication. And one only had 1 post linked to it before I sent it back to workshop. The 1 I haven't bought is because it requires another power which is rather expensive but is linked to a technique I need.

All of which is beside the point. If we get more players (not just characters) it'll eventually need to be addressed in a more comprehensive fashion.

Now that I think about it, we should implement a, "Must purchase as soon as approved" rule. If you are not ready for the move you are applying for, then effectively you are bogging everything down for the people who are ready to use the moves they are applying for. They are the ones who need help first, as they intend to use their moves in an upcoming post, not you. This could help to clear the clutter out a bit I feel.

That only works if the community gets it right. Hence one of my points in the system was to allow a person to convert their threads back into a community workshop as needed. In my system a mod can just pop into a thread and say this needs to go back to the workshop and it saves the user from making more posts in multiple threads. They just change the topic title and the community can comment again.

Provided you actually archive finished threads into a subforum, there will be very little effort that needs to go into to checking the active threads.

[Sasuke Uchiha]

While your idea sounds nice in theory, I could see how it could actually create more work for the staff. An example? Here:

Honestly as a staffer I find it easier to go through the topic in straightforward chronological order rather than clicking through a bunch of topics.

Edit:

Edit: Also, you make a ton of moves before you are ready for them. If you saved them for approval for when you were actually ready to pay for them, you wouldn't have this problem. (You've submitted more moves than anyone near your join date, but you only have 3 moves paid for. You are creating your own clutter to get around. =/)

Hardly, 4/5 are approved, only one had any real discourse which was from a miscommunication. And one only had 1 post linked to it before I sent it back to workshop. The 1 I haven't bought is because it requires another power which is rather expensive but is linked to a technique I need.

All of which is beside the point. If we get more players (not just characters) it'll eventually need to be addressed in a more comprehensive fashion.

Now that I think about it, we should implement a, "Must purchase as soon as approved" rule. If you are not ready for the move you are applying for, then effectively you are bogging everything down for the people who are ready to use the moves they are applying for. They are the ones who need help first, as they intend to use their moves in an upcoming post, not you. This could help to clear the clutter out a bit I feel.

That only works if the community gets it right.

Why wouldn't we get it right? The entire site follows the rules as far as I know... Mistakes happen, but that doesn't mean rules are getting completely ignored. Lol, I don't even know why you said this. We can follow rules, yo! =P

[Yu Kanda]

I am going to request that we stop this debating/complaining/brainstorming untill we see how the new system will work.

Every day this discussion arrives and every day its the same result. We cannot change it this instant....the big bosses are working on a new system. Give them time and see how it goes after its implemented.

[Minato Namikaze]

While your idea sounds nice in theory, I could see how it could actually create more work for the staff. An example? Here:

Honestly as a staffer I find it easier to go through the topic in straightforward chronological order rather than clicking through a bunch of topics.

I'm going to say this, although it's a rather interesting Idea. If you have a forum dedicated to having 1 thread for every person, with all their approved/ non approved moves, which can also be opened into a workshop-esque fashion, it just essentially creates 20 - 30 more, active, move approval/ workshop threads. (this is what Omni is worried about)

I am going to have to say that this thread is to be closed. I'm not actually going to lock it, but I'd prefer if this discussion stops because it seems as though it may become an argument thread rather than a discussion thread.

[Demetri Malius]

An quick idea: couple of my teachers have had the rule " See three before you see me." I believe we can apply the same theory here. We can incorporate Ururuu's idea of the move topics and have it so that the community (not mods) must look at your move before it can be sent to be approved. Perhapa you must have three pwople aign off om thw move before it can be approved by a mod. That way it can be ironed out while keeping the clutter away from the move approval topic. It also helps the community understand moves better and allows the community give a helping hand, that way we can have more solid and detailed moves pooping up for approval.

[Ururu Kyuuei]

While your idea sounds nice in theory, I could see how it could actually create more work for the staff. An example? Here:

Honestly as a staffer I find it easier to go through the topic in straightforward chronological order rather than clicking through a bunch of topics.

Edit:

Edit: Also, you make a ton of moves before you are ready for them. If you saved them for approval for when you were actually ready to pay for them, you wouldn't have this problem. (You've submitted more moves than anyone near your join date, but you only have 3 moves paid for. You are creating your own clutter to get around. =/)

Hardly, 4/5 are approved, only one had any real discourse which was from a miscommunication. And one only had 1 post linked to it before I sent it back to workshop. The 1 I haven't bought is because it requires another power which is rather expensive but is linked to a technique I need.

All of which is beside the point. If we get more players (not just characters) it'll eventually need to be addressed in a more comprehensive fashion.

Now that I think about it, we should implement a, "Must purchase as soon as approved" rule. If you are not ready for the move you are applying for, then effectively you are bogging everything down for the people who are ready to use the moves they are applying for. They are the ones who need help first, as they intend to use their moves in an upcoming post, not you. This could help to clear the clutter out a bit I feel.

That only works if the community gets it right.

Why wouldn't we get it right? The entire site follows the rules as far as I know... Mistakes happen, but that doesn't mean rules are getting completely ignored. Lol, I don't even know why you said this. We can follow rules, yo! =P

Well following the rules and knowing the rules are two different things. Sure I follow the rules as well and have a good idea of how they work, but then again so do a lot of people who find a lot more needs to be done. And to be honest if we knew the rules as well as the mods did and we are supposed to, we wouldn't need the workshop nearly as much as we do.

Plus the workshop isn't very conducive to in-depth discussion. Nor when your particular post sit for a whole week without being even mentioned. Which reminds me I need to bump that post.

Its kind of like sitting in a crowded room and trying to discuss War and Peace.

[Ururu Kyuuei]

An quick idea: couple of my teachers have had the rule " See three before you see me." I believe we can apply the same theory here. We can incorporate Ururuu's idea of the move topics and have it so that the community (not mods) must look at your move before it can be sent to be approved. Perhapa you must have three pwople aign off om thw move before it can be approved by a mod. That way it can be ironed out while keeping the clutter away from the move approval topic. It also helps the community understand moves better and allows the community give a helping hand, that way we can have more solid and detailed moves pooping up for approval.

This actually mirrors the system we had on Engi no Jutsu exactly.
Its rather effective too. Three Elders sign off followed by a yey or nay from a staffer.

Edit: However those same elders were also allowed to ask for staff help if the technique in question was outside their range of system knowledge. Sometimes a staff member is needed to fill gaps.

[Sasuke Uchiha]

Its kind of like sitting in a crowded room and trying to discuss War and Peace.

Okay, but if your moves aren't ready for purchase... Then it is kinda like being the country Madagascar, sitting in a crowded room trying to discuss War and Peace. Please leave it up to the United Nations. (Members who are ready for purchase) =P

As for your posts going weeks without being touched, the new changes being implemented to staff will hopefully alleviate the problems that cause this to happen. All we can do is have patience and see how it all plays out.