Ganon's Path to Greatness

[Ganondorf]

Post done. Now we move into a new thread. Great job, guys!

[Thaal Sinestro]

HELLZ TO THE YEAH

[Magus]

Caesar was loved by the citizens of Rome. The Senate feared him because they feared they would lose power. So they murdered him and fulfilled their own prophecy when his nephew turned them into figureheads.

As for Alexander, he certainly was a bombastic person (blame his dad, that guy was a prick fo sho), but he was also cold and logical so I'm not sure 'temper tantrums' is the correct term. Are you discussing the Siege of Tyre? If so, it took that long because it was an island surrounded by walls. It was also one of the most important cities in the Levant. The Crusades spent about a year besieging it as well. He also didn't crucify everyone, he had most fighting men crucified and sold the others into slavery.

To most people, Alexander was Greek rather than Macedonian. I'm not sure if you're construing 'Alexander's Macedon' for the empire he forged, but if you are, I think the phrase 'scoured from the world' is probably the least accurate remark, seeing as how most of the world was ruled by members of his entourage: Ptolemic Egypt, Selucid Persia, and Macedon remained the strongest kingdom in Ionia until the Romans swept in and destroyed them (as Romans are wont to do). So don't equate the longevity of Alexander's legacy with that of Atilla the Hun (a more appropriate comparison would have been Ghengis Khan, whose empire genuinely fragmented and localized and then vanished after an albeit long decline).

As for his thing with eastern customs, that was really part of a broader plan to incorporate the best elements of all the various cultures. He was a fan of how Persia governed provinces, for instance, and he also supported a lot of emigration from Greece to his new lands (which continued after his death). He didn't expect to die, and if he had survived, I imagine he would have had a fruitful empire.

Yeah I conceded that Caesar was kind of a big deal. But there were a lot of people unhappy with his transition from 'emergency dictator' to 'tyrant.' That's all.

And I don't really care what most people think; Alexander the Great was from Macedon, end of story. Facts are facts. :awesome:

And yeah, the lands he conquered remained powerful, but divided. They were -not- part of Alexander's kingdom, only years/decades (depending on the region) after his death. The whole thing fell apart.

His own soldiers hated him toward the end of his life. Alex became super paranoid that people were trying to kill him, and, in fact, people were trying to kill him. There are at least two documented cases where a member of his own bodyguard tried to do him in, along with a number of cases involving his soldiers.

It may have been Tyre. But given your description, probably not. This was, in fact, a city with absolutely no value whatsoever for Alexander in any way, shape, or form. He obliterated them because he could, and nothing else.

And hell yes I'd call them 'temper tantrums.' He once had a shitload of Persian palaces burned, and a few hours cried about it because of the huge waste he'd just committed. He was, of course, drunk.

He was an incredible general but a catastrophically bad politician. Almost all of the lands he conquered, he left unqualified, resentful puppets in charge of. Almost all of them rebelled at various points, most of them after Alex's death.

His empire was already crumbling way before he died. Hell, way before he even finished his campaign.

Alex wasn't loved. He was feared for his bizarre moodiness, arrogance, and ruthlessness. But not loved.

[Proto Man]

When did Caesar become a tyrant? When he was reforming the Roman state and feeding the poor? Caesar was murdered because the Senate didn't want to lose power.

Then find a citation for your city. And are you talking about the burning of Persepolis? Because the historiography on that goes back and forth. And I know he was from Macedon. His empire wasn't crumbling at his death. I mean at his death he was planning future campaigns. You don't do that when you're political base is crumbling. The successor states that were founded in his wake lasted for centuries, not years. They were certainly part of his kingdom. They were ruled by Greeks and they all deified Alexander. There's a reason that entire period of history is called the Hellenistic Era.

I'm certain he was feared by a lot of people, but he was also loved by contemporaries and loved by the foreign cultures that followed after him. That's far from the universal vilification you seem to think has been levied upon him.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Writing a post now! Should be done today or tomorrow morning.

[Ganondorf]

Huzzah!

[Magus]

When did Caesar become a tyrant? When he was reforming the Roman state and feeding the poor? Caesar was murdered because the Senate didn't want to lose power.

Then find a citation for your city. And are you talking about the burning of Persepolis? Because the historiography on that goes back and forth. And I know he was from Macedon. His empire wasn't crumbling at his death. I mean at his death he was planning future campaigns. You don't do that when you're political base is crumbling. The successor states that were founded in his wake lasted for centuries, not years. They were certainly part of his kingdom. They were ruled by Greeks and they all deified Alexander. There's a reason that entire period of history is called the Hellenistic Era.

I'm certain he was feared by a lot of people, but he was also loved by contemporaries and loved by the foreign cultures that followed after him. That's far from the universal vilification you seem to think has been levied upon him.

It was hardly -only- because the Senate didn't want to lose power. Crossing the Rubicon was an act of war against Rome. Caesar and everyone else knew it. He took what he wanted with no due process whatsoever and made himself an uncontested ruler. That's tyranny. He may have been a benevolent dictator (even that is debatable) but he -was- a tyrant. Nobody was able to question his rule.

As far as Alexander goes... man, I'm not a classics major but literally every classics course I've taken was focused heavily on either Rome or Greece, and every single professor had nothing but bad things to say about Alex except that he was an awesome soldier/general. Huge props for him fighting in pretty much all of his own battles, etc.

Even all of the primary and secondary sources I'd ever found (except for the obvious commissioned propaganda) painted Alex in a dim light. History around Alex's life is also extremely suspect; almost every contemporary historian embellished in one way or another to suit their own ends or a political bias.

Hell, one work from what was regarded as one of his 'closest' contemporaries turned out to be total bullshit. One of his admirals (Nearchus, I think?) claimed to have gone on all of these campaigns with Alexander and went on about how they were friends etc etc, and it turned out they were rarely ever together and, in fact, Nearchus was never involved in one of Alexander's campaigns.

So, I dunno. I'm not gonna fight you on it; I'm not an expert in the field or anything, but I just don't agree with you on your stance. Sorry, man.

[Proto Man]

Agree to disagree. I hope you didn't take any of this personally. It's just one thing I actually like to get into.

I'm sorry but I have to emphatically disagree about your remark pertaining to the Rubicon. The Senate, led by Pompey, was afraid it would lose power if Caesar returned an stood for election. His political rivals declared him an outlaw and wanted to prosecute him to remove his political clot. The previous two centuries had pretty much consisted of rival marching on Rome and murdering their opponents. Caesar was a lot of things, but he wasn't an idiot. As for him being an 'uncontested ruler,' Caesar fought a civil war for about five years. He didn't technically come to power until one or two months (calenderssssss) before his death.

The shitty part about Alexander is that many of the 'good' (by that I mean readily accessible and easy to understand) sources are from centuries later (like Arrian and Plutarch). One of my advisers in undergrad was a classics guy (Ancient Greece and Rome), and he had a pretty positive opinion of the guy. There were plenty of laughs about plausible alcoholism stemming from dad issues (Philip was a giant giant dick) though. All I know about Nearchus is that he sailed around on a boat, I wasn't aware that he wrote sources.

But yea, feel free to yell at me on Steam anytime. I could use a good excuse to re-freshen myself on the classics.

[Magus]

I'm on Steam and Skype right now; I am not sure I have you as a contact on either.

I don't know how you can argue the point about the Rubicon, though. Any general who crossed the Rubicon into Roman territory was effectively declaring war, as soldiers were absolutely not allowed to. That was written into law way before Caesar showed up. Caesar didn't enter Rome as a politician when he crossed the Rubicon with his legion, lol

And 'uncontested' in that he was clearly not an elected official, nor did his rule stem from any 'divine right' or anything like that. He took power and was like 'too bad.' You saying it kicked off a civil war kind of... helps my position in that he ruled at least in part through fear.

And yep. Recorded history around Alex's time... sucked.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Aaaand we're up and running! I totally sucked at writing lately haha.

[Ganondorf]

Nice.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Anyone got any feedback?

[Proto Man]

I'm on Steam and Skype right now; I am not sure I have you as a contact on either.

I don't know how you can argue the point about the Rubicon, though. Any general who crossed the Rubicon into Roman territory was effectively declaring war, as soldiers were absolutely not allowed to. That was written into law way before Caesar showed up. Caesar didn't enter Rome as a politician when he crossed the Rubicon with his legion, lol

And 'uncontested' in that he was clearly not an elected official, nor did his rule stem from any 'divine right' or anything like that. He took power and was like 'too bad.' You saying it kicked off a civil war kind of... helps my position in that he ruled at least in part through fear.

And yep. Recorded history around Alex's time... sucked.

The Senate was violating Roman law when they demanded a general give up his army before his term expired or be declared an enemy of the state.

He didn't 'rule' through fear. He was loved by everyone who wasn't an ally of Pompey (who were afraid he'd be easily elected consul when his term expired). He didn't murder anyone, compared to say, Marius or Sulla. Like I mentioned, he spent most of this period chasing Pompey around Europe and having private time with Cleopatra. He wanted on multiple occasions to discuss things with Pompey. At the time of his death, Rome had actually become more stable than it had been for the last two centuries.

The irony is that, in killing Caesar to preserve their own influence, the anti-Caesar faction destroyed the Republic. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the man was an angel, but to say he held Rome in the grip of fear just isn't in the history.

[Magus]

I... didn't really imply that. I'm just saying he wasn't the hero you're making him out to be. That's pretty much it.

You have to admit the case of Caesar is pretty extraordinary. He was given tons of extraordinary powers and resources compared to any other general. He was basically given the keys to the nation and told to 'go win and stuff.' I don't think the Senate was being unreasonable in trying to take that power back from him after it became unnecessary for him to have it. It may have been in violation of Roman law but the existence of Caesar as temporary dictator, in my view, made him something else than 'just' a general entirely.

[Proto Man]

When you talk about powers are you talking about before or after Pompey fled Rome? Because before 48 BCE, Caesar was just a general/provincial governor. Pompey and his Senate allies weren't trying to remove some special powers in 50/49 (Caesar had none, at that time, of course), they wanted to prevent him from returning to Rome after his term because he was popular and would have been a threat to their power.

[Magus]

Man, come on, even though he didn't have special powers in 49 he -had- had them before. And his army was much larger than what was standard of governors at the time that he crossed the river.

[Nanoha Takamachi]

You two should move this to a new thread. I'm enjoying reading this but you're shitting up an OOC thread.

[Eighteen]

Agreed.

[Ganondorf]

I'ma write something up tomorrow. Apologies for taking so long. I'm gonna try to get one up early next week, since I have drill.

[Ganondorf]

I suck. I'll do something tomorrow.

Once again, I suck. Sorry.