SURVEY QUESTION: MOVES!

[PepsiWhirda]

Most of my gripes have been echoed a dozen times already by Bandit and company, but I have a few differences to talk about: 

I don't think this is only a matter of the system being "too complicated" or requiring "too much information."  What I believe is that the system is bloated, inefficient, and poorly executed.  If the consensus is (and I think we've shown here it isn't) we should keep the extraneous data points to help certain people inform their writing, fine.  I disagree with that, but I'm not about to go against the current on a personal vendetta.  Rather, for me the issue is that the information needed to write a move without a lot of pointless and time-consuming back-and-forth simply does not exist in an organized and effective way.  We've discussed adding generic templates for moves that are pre-balanced, and just allowing users to [insert flavor here] such as adding a visual description and tweaking numbers to suit their style or character.  If a sweeping and comprehensive change isn't gonna happen in any sort of timely fashion, then fine... do that.  But do it, don't just talk about it endlessly.

Still, I think the above paragraph yet again misses the greater issue.  We all talk about a desire to grow the site and foster an environment conducive to creativity and fun, and the current system is, quite literally in my eyes, the absolute antithesis of fun.  Bandit has mentioned he has friends who wanted to join but said fuck that when encountering the moves system, the massive tables of rules without a functional tl;dr, and the joining process in general. I can also testify to that fact, because I've given invites to two good writing buddies of mine, but both of them changed their minds when they dug into the site.  Whether or not the current system works is not the question for me; rather, it's, "What does the current system add to the Omniverse and the ultimate goal of garnering new members and fostering a fun environment; and what does it take away?"  For me, and for many others in this thread, the answer is, "The current system doesn't add enough, and it takes too much away."

Now, I'm not suggesting abolishing numbers and metrics entirely, and I'm not suggesting divesting the Omniverse from the ideal that this is both a writing website and a role-playing game.  What I'm suggesting is that the moves system (and, more broadly, the entire process of joining and getting up to speed) needs to be as user-friendly as possible, and the simplest way to implement that ideal is to cut all the extraneous beeswax and focus on creative freedom and creative agency.  A move can give potential opponents an informative description of its capabilities without needing to tack on a bunch of metagamey crap that ultimately gets ignored in favor of telling a great story.  I don't need to know that a gun takes three seconds to reload, because sometimes it needs to take two seconds and sometimes five, because in the end none of the numbers matter.  They are tools to leverage for storytelling, and making them mandatory because someone can't inform their own decisions or can't find the time to ask their fight opponent a quick clarifying question adds nothing useful to the Omniverse.

In a philosophical sense, I think we need to figure out what we want the Omniverse to be.  If we want it to be a bloated RPG where the quixotic notion of "game balance" takes precedence over ease of use, then keep the current moves system but implement a way to make it easy to learn and minimize the barriers of entry to joining and having fun on the site.  Because it really is costing us new members, whether it's five members or fifty, and it really is pissing off current members who see it as useless fluff that in the end gets ignored a large proportion of the time anyway.  Or, if we want the Omniverse to be a writing website, where telling quality stories takes precedence over playing some min-maxing numbers game and inviting power creep that defeats the notion of balance anyway, then we should cut all the chaff (or make it optional) and allow straightforward and informative moves to pass.

Whatever the decision, let's actually do something and let's make it snappy, because as far as I'm concerned leaving it the same is not an option.  This isn't a new issue just because now we have a thread about it.  It's been discussed constantly for months, in the shoutbox, in the public Discord, in the staff Discord, etc....  And while we talk in circles we're losing new members and doing current members a disservice.

[Bandit With No Name]

^^^^

[Civic]

I can't say anything better than what's been said by Bandit, Trixie, Whirda and co. If we're scaring people off because of how complex it is, we need to do something.

[PepsiWhirda]

Second post for this because it's only tangentially related to my earlier post.

I also think we need to reevaluate how moves are costed and what constitutes a "variable use."  I think it's absurd that I should have to pay 600 OM for a gun that can rapid fire or burst fire.  If it was a gun that turned into a shield, I can understand paying 600 OM because those are drastically different functions.  In the writing, the difference between burst fire and rapid fire is negligible and I work hard for my OM.

[X-23]

Half of the issue isn't even that it's complex, since I've been back I've tried to have 1 move approved. Nothing overtly fancy, but even that took 5 or 6 posts to get perfected. The complexity mixed with the outright rigidity and "hell no" attitude makes it 10 times more daunting than it should be. Move creation was a big part of the reason I enjoyed this site, I used to contribute massively in the move creation workshop back in the day when I was on staff and I found it crazy fun, for whatever reason. These days its almost like the fun has been stripped and now it's hard facts or go home. There's very very little room for creativity if it even slightly deviates from what's perceived as standard.

[Schwi Dola]

My opinion is simple it is fine. It works.

But the moves system is just as limited.  Specific character types simply do not work in Omniverse and the Moves get arounds are strange at best. I refer to two in one characters and how its been much suggested that you could use moves to pretend you have Pokemon without using an Assist.

BWNN could make a good point with how the metrics moves have don't actually mean much when you get to the actual use. The only question to say this for sure is, are move mechanics judged upon in a fight? If my opponents used a move they didn't have, would the judge notice without me pointing it out? Are judges reading the profiles of every character and judging whether or not the moves were used correctly?

To that last one, if the answer is yes, then all move metrics matter. If the answer is no, then what moves actually do don't matter. If the answer relies on the players to read eachother's profiles and call out what is wrong well... that would be flawed in a dozen different ways. A player that complains puts themselves into a negative light. Complain and maybe get something, or complain and make a bad impression with a judge which can affect the judgement negatively? That player has a personal stake in calling out opponents so will not be neutral. You could get a community backlash for calling out your opponents for small flaws. Maybe not a big blowup, but giving everyone a bad taste for being pedantic and thus people are less inclined to post with you.

A bigger issue is, if we can decide move details don't matter enough what is the best way to implement such fairly?

[Dane Regan]

Second post for this because it's only tangentially related to my earlier post.

I also think we need to reevaluate how moves are costed and what constitutes a "variable use."  I think it's absurd that I should have to pay 600 OM for a gun that can rapid fire or burst fire.  If it was a gun that turned into a shield, I can understand paying 600 OM because those are drastically different functions.  In the writing, the difference between burst fire and rapid fire is negligible and I work hard for my OM.

I don't believe it's unclear at all. Just that people always want to try and squeeze in ways to save OM.

The primary reason is that different fire modes actually change the strength of the individual bullets. 3 bullets from full auto might be fairly weak together, 3 bullets from a burst might be somewhat strong. Each fire mode is essentially a different gun. 3 guns would cost ya 900 OM.

If someone wants so skimp on OM, they can opt to make a gun that can fire bullets up to X rate, and add in fire modes as pure fodder, where you're shooting slower for no benefit outside of saving ammo and potentially aiming each shot a bit better. Where by burst and semi-automatic modes are basically equivalent to tapping the trigger on the automatic mode. That might not sound so bad until you realise bullets from a full auto gun are typically weak, since if you're shooting 5-10 shots per second, it's probably gonna take about a second to break someone's skin with a hard to dodge ranged move (obviously, you can skew it based on the situation and what writes well, bit individual bullets from a full auto gun are weak - they're a hard to dodge attack and there's a lot of them, hence they'd be weak). But that's getting off topic, somewhat.

[PepsiWhirda]

Second post for this because it's only tangentially related to my earlier post.

I also think we need to reevaluate how moves are costed and what constitutes a "variable use."  I think it's absurd that I should have to pay 600 OM for a gun that can rapid fire or burst fire.  If it was a gun that turned into a shield, I can understand paying 600 OM because those are drastically different functions.  In the writing, the difference between burst fire and rapid fire is negligible and I work hard for my OM.

I don't believe it's unclear at all. Just that people always want to try and squeeze in ways to save OM.

The primary reason is that different fire modes actually change the strength of the individual bullets. 3 bullets from full auto might be fairly weak together, 3 bullets from a burst might be somewhat strong. Each fire mode is essentially a different gun. 3 guns would cost ya 900 OM.

If someone wants so skimp on OM, they can opt to make a gun that can fire bullets up to X rate, and add in fire modes as pure fodder, where you're shooting slower for no benefit outside of saving ammo and potentially aiming each shot a bit better. Where by burst and semi-automatic modes are basically equivalent to tapping the trigger on the automatic mode. That might not sound so bad until you realise bullets from a full auto gun are typically weak, since if you're shooting 5-10 shots per second, it's probably gonna take about a second to break someone's skin with a hard to dodge ranged move (obviously, you can skew it based on the situation and what writes well, bit individual bullets from a full auto gun are weak - they're a hard to dodge attack and there's a lot of them, hence they'd be weak). But that's getting off topic, somewhat.

If four pages of discussion hasn't clued you in to why the logic of your post is fallacious, then perpetuating the discussion isn't going to solve anything.

[Bandit With No Name]

What's the use of a feedback thread if a single staff member is just gonna sit here and Stonewall all discussion??

This is not how feedback is done in literally ANY arena, professional or otherwise. If you disagree with something as a game development, just thank people for their opinions and discuss it with the team backstage.

Sitting here and "nuh uh"in this entire thread is actively discouraging people from joining it, and also it makes everyone here feel undervalued and unheard.

At the end of the day, staff decides, so you don't need to argue with people IN THE FEEDBACK THREAD. That's absolutely counter to the point.

[Dane Regan]

Communicating with your fellow writers is that higher standard.

People get busy, Trix. DA has a post timer of 48 hours. I doubt many would call in a strike because someone's not around to answer questions. Yes, we should always communicate. But, I very clearly remember you saying you'd write people's characters however you pleased in DA if you couldn't see info about their fighting styles on their roster (slight exaggeration) - how is the info for moves any different? Another point: I may be wrong, but can you say you'd communicate properly with writers you don't like?

We don't make people PM staff for rules info. We put it in the rules. And every time a repeated question comes up, we add it to the FAQ. Moves should thus contain answers to the main questions others might ask, and I can't see the idea of "but they can just ask me" as a justification otherwise.

[Jade Harley]

Glance in any D&D handbook and you can see an obvious resemblance to the moves system we have. Charge times, duration, and range are important in many spells, but that may not always be the case for the Omniverse. I feel like the big things for the writer side of things are What Does It Look Like? and How Does It Feel To Get Hit by It? But sometimes that information is not sufficient when describing what a move does, especially a complex move that applies buffs or debuffs. The trick is finding where the balance is. And I think there is a balance, because the Omniverse is not purely a writing website, but a setting where limitations are intentionally placed on the writer and character for the purpose of fairness and to keep things interesting.

But, somewhere along the line we, the mods, have started asking for too much information that might not actually be needed. This has caused problems and people feel as if they are being intentionally kept from actually writing. I can assure you that this change in mod attitude has been a very gradual process and that we are doing everything we can to rectify it. I myself am definitely guilty of asking for the length of a sword or the duration of a spell, but that was information that I personally felt would be pertinent to writing a fight scene well. Not everyone agrees, I'm seeing now, so I appreciate seeing all of the feedback you guys are providing. I also agree that variability MUST be more clearly defined and made less strict in some cases.

Moves are only a fraction of what the site is about. We are trying to find a way to minimize the inflammatory nature of trying to get a move approved and cut back on any percieved restrictions it places on writers. Please remember that the staff are members of the website as well and that we in no way benefit from being too harsh when judging moves. We are not trying to limit you, but that is what has happened. We are trying to fix it. Just give us time.

[Jade Harley]

REMINDER, FOR MODS TOO: This is NOT a debate thread, but a discussion. If I see any veiled insults or actively rude posts from this point onward, I am deleting your entire post regardless of whatever good content is included elsewhere. Be kind and respectful.

[Bandit With No Name]

Glance in any D&D handbook and you can see an obvious resemblance to the moves system we have. Charge times, duration, and range are important in many spells, but that may not always be the case for the Omniverse. I feel like the big things for the writer side of things are What Does It Look Like? and How Does It Feel To Get Hit by It? But sometimes that information is not sufficient when describing what a move does, especially a complex move that applies buffs or debuffs. The trick is finding where the balance is. And I think there is a balance, because the Omniverse is not purely a writing website, but a setting where limitations are intentionally placed on the writer and character for the purpose of fairness and to keep things interesting.

But, somewhere along the line we, the mods, have started asking for too much information that might not actually be needed. This has caused problems and people feel as if they are being intentionally kept from actually writing. I can assure you that this change in mod attitude has been a very gradual process and that we are doing everything we can to rectify it. I myself am definitely guilty of asking for the length of a sword or the duration of a spell, but that was information that I personally felt would be pertinent to writing a fight scene well. Not everyone agrees, I'm seeing now, so I appreciate seeing all of the feedback you guys are providing. I also agree that variability MUST be more clearly defined and made less strict in some cases.

Moves are only a fraction of what the site is about. We are trying to find a way to minimize the inflammatory nature of trying to get a move approved and cut back on any percieved restrictions it places on writers. Please remember that the staff are members of the website as well and that we in no way benefit from being too harsh when judging moves. We are not trying to limit you, but that is what has happened. We are trying to fix it. Just give us time.

<3 I appreciate that. It's a very subjective design, so trying to find good metrics is hard. Thank you for your continued efforts to make the site a better place

[Yu Kanda]

I was staying out of this. But.... Well said Jade...well said.

( For the Record, i agree with the points both Whirda and Bandit are making)

sits back in the sideline

[Dane Regan]

Half of the issue isn't even that it's complex, since I've been back I've tried to have 1 move approved. Nothing overtly fancy, but even that took 5 or 6 posts to get perfected. The complexity mixed with the outright rigidity and "hell no" attitude makes it 10 times more daunting than it should be. Move creation was a big part of the reason I enjoyed this site, I used to contribute massively in the move creation workshop back in the day when I was on staff and I found it crazy fun, for whatever reason. These days its almost like the fun has been stripped and now it's hard facts or go home. There's very very little room for creativity if it even slightly deviates from what's perceived as standard.

Yeah, I get what you mean with the back and forths thing. That can be annoying, but usually I try to help others add in what's needed to fit the requirements. Got any suggestions of what might have made it quicker and easier for you? Stuff to smooth the cogs, rather than a rewrite of the system or anything.

But, I would strongly disagree with the comment about rigity. Besides the stuff that's against the rules (like trying to get a move to forcibly mind control someone for a round), pretty much anything goes. That said, I can understand why you'd feel that if you're referring to join apps, since often (no offense guys) the mods over there aren't as sure when it comes to more complicated moves or something that isn't the standard, because they're human and don't want to make a mistake. It's much easier for a mod less experienced or sure about moves to put a stamp on a move that's basically a reskin of another approved move, than to put a stamp on a whole new thing.

"There's very very little room for creativity if it even slightly deviates from what's perceived as standard."
Outside of needed certain numbers or specifics, you can basically do what you want, both with your move itself and how you write it. And I'm sure you could use those creatively in a fight. Hard facts don't need to make up your whole move, and usually I don't find it too hard to fit them in naturally.

[Schwi Dola]

There's very very little room for creativity if it even slightly deviates from what's perceived as standard.

I want to comment on this specifically seeing Dane's response, as I hadn't read it before. But, false and I can present proof. Desco, Toybox Girl, and Schwi. All three of these ladies have had moves that drastically deviate from what you could call 'standard'.

Desco could float without flight. She summoned a second body that counts as her own. She self-destructed when taking lethal damage with a blast that hit the nearby area based on her Level. How many moves are effective based on your character level?

Schwi can turn normal moves she mimicks into super moves.

Toybox Girl had approved at one point the ability to not forget a mimic move (various restrictions). Although this was later rescinded by Omni (A mod approved this).

There is a lot of flexibility for creativity.

[Dane Regan]

Toybox Girl had approved at one point the ability to not forget a mimic move (various restrictions). Although this was later rescinded by Omni (A mod approved this).

To add to this: Some moves may take longer to approve for this reason. We don't want to have to back track or later find out something should have been denied. Very, very, few moves will ever be flat out denied though, and I do try to find a compromise when needed. Most just need a couple of changes. If something new-ish comes along, I'll tend to ask the other mods about it before I give it a stamp.

[Sarah Kerrigan]

So, I do feel a certain desire to address a statement here very specifically:

I doubt anyone didn't join because they didn't want to say "my gun has X bullets". Maybe being intimidated by the idea of having to add or balance charge times. That said, I wouldn't be too surprised if someone didn't because they were under the impression they were expected to try and keep track of those X bullets. I think a lot of the problem is people overestimated what's required of them when making moves. If you say what you're wanting to do, I will help. Or someone else will.[/color]

I'm really disappointed by this statement. Not just because it minimizes an issue to it's easiest-to-attack point by satirizing it with the bullet line.
That being said, I wanted to talk about this because it's personally affected me. I have several different people who I used to roleplay with who I don't now. One of the main issues I've heard is the problem with moves.

Now, in particular, I attempted to get one of my friends from another old site onto here. This lady is someone I have worked with before, in capacity as an admin on another site. She used to do move approval for me and help me out when I was just starting off. She's got more experience in roleplaying than I do. I tried to explain the move system to her, and eventually she ended up deciding not to bother.

Now, one could say it's due to impatience? but we took a few days working through the site together. One could say it's due to inexperience as a roleplayer? Except this is a girl I consider my peer if not outright better than me at roleplaying. This is the person who helped me learn a lot of what I know. She's clearly capable of understanding move mechanics to some degree given she was the taught me how to read them back on our old site, when I started. This is someone with well over 6 years of experience in roleplaying.

What does this outline?
Someone with many years of experience in roleplaying finds the move system currently too much of a problem to want to play here. And honestly?

I feel like that sometimes too. I don't find it fun to make new moves for approval. I find it exhausting to do the back-and-forth of how things work. And like I said, I still don't understand it well enough, now, to generally make a move that works the first time. I've been on the site for three years, I have a move (that was a team effort built with Greg, I’ll note, in order to avoid stealing credit) on the example list, and I still can't manage it on the first go-around.

I'm bringing this up because I feel like the issue of losing potential players because of the move system being a road-block isn't something that should be ignored, or can't be over-stated. This is a problem I've had with three different people who would have been great, fun additions to the Omniverse when introducing them to the place. I wasn't given room for ambiguity upon asking them about it - the move rules were overwhelming and they weren't willing to take days of time and effort just to figure out the basics of it. It didn't seem fun.

And my thoughts are - if so many people that I'm showing this site to, that come here looking at the place with a glowing recommendation from a friend they trust, still don't want to jump in after seeing the Move system - I can't help but think that we're missing a bunch of anonymous people who've come to see the site through voting, search terms, etc. that had an honest interest in joining - and saw the moves - and left.

even if that's just 1 person, I'm counting a total of four members minimum we've lost from the system.

I’m aware everyone is working really hard on the staff side of things, and by the fact that the survey question has come up in the first place, It’s clear that everyone’s open to input, and I appreciate that, but I’d also like to use this feedback opportunity to stress this: the move system is a roadblock to a lot of new players looking to join the site is a very real problem, and not one that should be minimized.

[Mickey Mouse]

Glance in any D&D handbook and you can see an obvious resemblance to the moves system we have. Charge times, duration, and range are important in many spells, but that may not always be the case for the Omniverse. I feel like the big things for the writer side of things are What Does It Look Like? and How Does It Feel To Get Hit by It? But sometimes that information is not sufficient when describing what a move does, especially a complex move that applies buffs or debuffs. The trick is finding where the balance is. And I think there is a balance, because the Omniverse is not purely a writing website, but a setting where limitations are intentionally placed on the writer and character for the purpose of fairness and to keep things interesting.

But, somewhere along the line we, the mods, have started asking for too much information that might not actually be needed. This has caused problems and people feel as if they are being intentionally kept from actually writing. I can assure you that this change in mod attitude has been a very gradual process and that we are doing everything we can to rectify it. I myself am definitely guilty of asking for the length of a sword or the duration of a spell, but that was information that I personally felt would be pertinent to writing a fight scene well. Not everyone agrees, I'm seeing now, so I appreciate seeing all of the feedback you guys are providing. I also agree that variability MUST be more clearly defined and made less strict in some cases.

Moves are only a fraction of what the site is about. We are trying to find a way to minimize the inflammatory nature of trying to get a move approved and cut back on any percieved restrictions it places on writers. Please remember that the staff are members of the website as well and that we in no way benefit from being too harsh when judging moves. We are not trying to limit you, but that is what has happened. We are trying to fix it. Just give us time.

This is great. At the end of the day I don’t think anyone (or many people) are asking for a completely new system or even a complete overhaul of this one, just that we find a way to make the current one more conducive to all types of members, ones who want to focus more (to borrow a genius delineation from Larva) on Function/Fluff over Function/Technicality.

In fact, everyone should really read at least the second half of Eternity’s post. Based on the rigorous debate in here it seems like some feedback is getting glossed over or at least not mentioned, and I assume that stuff is being discussed elsewhere but yeah, Eternity Larva’s post (esp the second half) is relevant and cool and all should look at it. 

Thanks, Jade.

[Dane Regan]

@Sarah: I'd argue the problem lies less along the lines of how the moves system is. But, rather, how it's perceived. A lot of comments in this thread, for example, have made claims about needing X, Y, and Z in moves, when only X is something we actually ask for. The checklist thing might look big to some, but most of the points are going to be irrelevant to any given move.

Some people presumably see moves as an interrogation or a hit and miss black box that they put stuff in and sometimes it gets approved and sometimes it doesn't. Rather than a rough specification or guideline to prevent later confusion. A lot of "complicated" moves can be written up by just describing what the character does in their canon in detail. A while back, Yu was having trouble with a move and asked me for help. I literally just wrote down a description of the gif he provided.

I'm sure the actual move rules can be oiled, and the process can be smoothed out and made easier, but I reckon a large problem is probably the presentation of the moves page itself. Since things have been added and added over the years every time a new question comes up making it look much more complicated than it actually is. Most of the time, we're just asking people to write down roughly what they had visualised in a way that doesn't leave it ambiguous. And if the answer for "how long does it take to charge your fireball spell" is "it depends" then they should probably be paying 300 more OM.

As for making it easier for new joiners, definitely. Like a quick and easy guide to moves or something, because a lot of the move rules are irrelevant except in very specific circumstances.