Move Creation Workshop

[Trixie]

The action would be too slow.

My main argument and point is that it wouldn't be. It would be the same reaction time I use to pull off Close Quarters Shielding. Now, I'm using the force, but the speed with which I have Trixie bring her arm forward is the same mechanic as Vash throwing the rock. 

Close Quarters Shielding: 

Close Quarters Shielding or CQS is an ability that Trixie developed in the Underverse to counter and deflect attacks in the absence of her light-saber. Using her thorough and extensive knowledge of the force Trixie can generate a small invisible barrier that coalesces around her hands. By pointing her open palm towards the attack or incoming projectile she wishes to defend against the densely clustered force energy around her hands can halt or divert melee and ranged attacks. The shield can only take one hit before the ambient force dissipates and needs to be re-summoned, which forces Trixie to recoil her arm and push forward with an open palm once again. While melee attacks can be abruptly stopped just short of her chosen hand, caught in the suspended force energy, ranged projectiles and attacks are disintegrated or diverted away. It can be used in relatively quick succession allowing her to block multiple attacks in a row, but requires a moderate amount of concentration and energy. Extended use would drain Trixie’s stamina rather fast if all she did was defend in a hand to hand fight.

@Trix: I'm not desputing his right to deflect projectiles. I'm just saying he would need to add something about throwing the rock faster if he wants to block bullets. Or do it some other concievable way. And without foresight, he'd probably need to be focusing on the shooter.

Enhanced Senses would remove the need to focus on the shooter. EH has a range, at the basic level, of 20 meters. From the rules.

Enhanced Senses

The ability to sense the shape and proximity of people and objects around you, unaffected by direction or physical obstacles. This reveals things which might be invisible to the human eye, such as cloaked beings, enemies waiting in ambush behind the next wall, or even things that are underground. At point-blank range, you will be able to sense things with perfect clarity, whereas at your maximum range things will be more fuzzy and difficult to discern. 

EH is basically like having an internal radar, because it's the move that lets you do such things if your character has a built in scouter, or is an android, or something that actively scans the area. (Terminator anyone?) It can be interpreted in many different ways. With this power and a TEC of 4, Vash would be well within reason of pin-pointing a bullet mid-flight and knocking it off course.

[Dane Regan]

Your shielding works because you can see someone aiming a prepare to block a bit prematurely. If someone shoots you and you're not prepared at all, you can't suddenly lift your arm in time to block it.

The problem with throwing a rock in comparison to this is that it can't be prepared because rocks fall and move about. It needs to be in the right place a the right time, and - without Vash saying he's able to throw it super fast - it would be too slow.

No. Enhanced senses let's him see everything. If he's not focusing on someone like a cowboy standoff, he's not going to be able to react the moment they shoot. Enhanced senses would just let him react to invisible people (if they don't have suppression), or people behind him. But he'd still need to be roughly focusing on them. That's from both a practical and a balance perspective.

And, while he could know where a bullet was mid-fight with that power (and could probably do it without if he was looking), that would not allow enough time to throw a rock to block it unless the shot is slow or was fired from far away.

[Trixie]

Your shielding works because you can see someone aiming a prepare to block a bit prematurely. If someone shoots you and you're not prepared at all, you can't suddenly lift your arm in time to block it.

Actually, based on this post: http://omniverse-rpg.com/showthread.php?...6#pid47696 

CQS is a purely Physical Proficiency based move. I rely on my TEC of 5. Which at the time was 4 (Because a high TEC person can deflect as was previously said.) Foresight is just an added bonus to my combat ability. None of my moves use Foresight IIRC.  

The problem with throwing a rock in comparison to this is that it can't be prepared because rocks fall and move about. It needs to be in the right place a the right time, and - without Vash saying he's able to throw it super fast - it would be too slow.

In the real world you'd get no argument from me, Dane. However, this is the Omniverse. For the sake of fairness a rock has the same potential as a bullet when written into a move properly regardless of whether or not it's being propelled by gunpowder or muscular force. 

If Vash wants to say he throws it really fast I'd still say the move is fine, but the drawback would be taking a toll on his stamina during the fight. He couldn't keep doing it (similar to CQS draining Trixie if all she did was defend.) His TEC allows this to be possible regardless of his SPD stat or ATK stat. 

No. Enhanced senses let's him see everything. If he's not focusing on someone like a cowboy standoff, he's not going to be able to react the moment they shoot. Enhanced senses would just let him react to invisible people (if they don't have suppression), or people behind him. But he'd still need to be roughly focusing on them. That's from both a practical and a balance perspective.

I'll give you that, but the rest of my points still stand. The move would force his character, in the moment, to focus and deflect. 

And, while he could know where a bullet was mid-fight with that power (and could probably do it without if he was looking), that would not allow enough time to throw a rock to block it unless the shot is slow or was fired from far away.

Circling back to what I said before, with a TEC of 4 it's absolutely viable.

[Sasuke Uchiha]

It's a very simple move it doesn't need to be this complicated. The dispute is this: Can he use rocks in a move to deflect bullets with a tech of 4?

-My assumption to this was: He can, but it's not always going to work. Having foresight improves it's ability to work, but is not instrumental.

[Trixie]

It's a very simple move it doesn't need to be this complicated. The dispute is this: Can he use rocks in a move to deflect bullets with a tech of 4?

-My assumption to this was: He can, but it's not always going to work. Having foresight improves it's ability to work, but is not instrumental.

The answer is yes, based on the rules, and if the move is written properly. I'd probably require at least the first level of Enhanced Senses to account for that level of hyper awareness.

[Dane Regan]

CQC doesn't need foresight. But, the only reason you can use it to block a bullet (without foresight), is by seeing someone aiming and lifting your arm a bit early. If you're just chilling about, you can't suddenly lift an arm quick enough to block a bullet that's already in mid-flight (unless you had a really high SPD).

For the sake of fairness a rock has the same potential as a bullet when written into a move properly regardless of whether or not it's being propelled by gunpowder or muscular force. 

No. For the sake of fairness, anyone can make a rock match a bullet in speed. That does not mean that a normal rock thrown at a normal speed will match a bullet in properties. In the OV, two things with identical properties act the same. Rocks are typically slower and larger than bullets, so do act differently. If I make a gun the same as yours, but its bullets/lasers move at arrow speed (or slower) for some reason, mine would be stronger due to omnibalance (but also easier to dodge or deflect).

That does not mean a rock thrown at normal throwing speed would be fast enough, just that, if Vash wants, he could specify in his move that he throws it at bullet speed (or at whatever speed he needs to to block the projectile attack).

A TEC of 4 is viable to deflect something. But it does not mean someone can suddenly just reflect any attack they want without a move that would allow them to. Throwing a rock at its normal speed would not allow him to block a bullet. An arrow, maybe. But not a bullet unless it was fired from pretty far away.

So, while Vash has the TEC, he would not be able to just toss up a rock to block a normal bullet. The action is too slow. It fundamentally doesn't make sense for him to be able to.

[Dane Regan]

It's a very simple move it doesn't need to be this complicated. The dispute is this: Can he use rocks in a move to deflect bullets with a tech of 4?

-My assumption to this was: He can, but it's not always going to work. Having foresight improves it's ability to work, but is not instrumental.

The answer is yes, based on the rules, and if the move is written properly. I'd probably require at least the first level of Enhanced Senses to account for that level of hyper awareness.

He would only need enhanced senses to block something coming from behind him. Something coming from the front would not need it. And his move already specified he needs to see where it's coming from so that aspect is fine.

[Trixie]

No. For the sake of fairness, anyone can make a rock match a bullet in speed. That does not mean that a normal rock thrown at a normal speed will match a bullet in properties.

I never argued that. I argued that the rock has the same potential. They can both do the same amount of damage given the right move. The rock needs to be in a move that goes "bullet speed" for it to travel that fast. Plus, depending on the weapon bullet speed changes tremendously. Nova, my NPC, has two Sniper Rifle moves that use extremely high power rounds that can dent Ultramarine Armor. That round, using real world logic, is moving well over 3000 feet a second. However because it's the Omniverse if someone tried to deflect it, it wouldn't matter. They could if they had the right skill set. 

CQC doesn't need foresight. But, the only reason you can use it to block a bullet (without foresight), is by seeing someone aiming and lifting your arm a bit early. If you're just chilling about, you can't suddenly lift an arm quick enough to block a bullet that's already in mid-flight (unless you had a really high SPD).

Agreed. The only reason I'd be able to do that off guard is because of Foresight, but remove that from the equation and yeah. I'd be caught off guard and undefended. That's a reasonable assumption. 

Rocks are typically slower and larger than bullets, so do act differently. If I make a gun the same as yours, but its bullets/lasers move at arrow speed (or slower) for some reason, mine would be stronger due to omnibalance (but also easier to dodge or deflect).

Yours would only be stronger if your ATK stat was higher. This only makes sense in the fact that, yes, not everyone is going to be throwing or shooting something at "bullet speed." It doesn't mean that if a move was written where a rock deflected an incoming projectile that it wouldn't though. It's implied. These are two different conversations. 

That does not mean a rock thrown at normal throwing speed would be fast enough, just that, if Vash wants, he could specify in his move that he throws it at bullet speed (or at whatever speed he needs to to block the projectile attack).

I don't think he'd need to say he throws it at bullet speed. It would be implied, based on what he's doing with the rock alone, that it's going to take effort and energy to pull off. 

A TEC of 4 is viable to deflect something. But it does not mean someone can suddenly just reflect any attack they want without a move that would allow them to. Throwing a rock at its normal speed would not allow him to block a bullet. An arrow, maybe. But not a bullet unless it was fired from pretty far away.

So, while Vash has the TEC, he would not be able to just toss up a rock to block a normal bullet. The action is too slow. It fundamentally doesn't make sense for him to be able to.

 I agree. The TEC stat itself even states you require a move. I also agree that he should be throwing the rock at a pretty hefty speed, like I said earlier, but I don't think he needs to have it in the move. An acceptable drawback is the strain on his arm.

[Dane Regan]

• Once activated, how fast does it travel? Required for original attacks and spells, but not for bullets and arrows unless they are different from the assumed speed. Examples: "Moves slowly at about five feet per second." "Moves about as fast as a thrown tennis ball." "Moves as fast as an arrow." "Moves as fast as a bullet."

Speed is an integral part of moves. You can't just handwave it away. Faster attacks are harder to dodge/block, slower ones are easier to dodge/block. Balance-wise, that means faster attacks do less damage than slower ones, assuming they have the same other drawbacks.

Damage is based on other things besides ATK. Moves with more drawbacks can be stronger. For a move that shoots something at bullet-speed, some of the moves strength is put towards that speed, thus reducing the damage by a bit. Comparatively, a move that shoots something at arrow speed would do a bit more damage if it hit something, compared to the bullet-speed one. Even if both users had equal ATK.

This doesn't mean that a "weaker" block-attack can't deflect a "stronger" attack. The above is from a pure damage perspective.

Plus, depending on the weapon bullet speed changes tremendously. 

That's correct. But for descriptive purposes, "bullet speed" is a close enough description to be good for writing. Generally, if you're firing a sniper shot, it's easy to assume the sniper bullet will be a lot faster than that from your pistol. I personally prefer to specify further, but that's not required.

The only reason I'd be able to do that off guard is because of Foresight, but remove that from the equation and yeah. I'd be caught off guard and undefended. That's a reasonable assumption. 

And that's my problem with Vash's move blocking bullets in its current state. The time it takes to execute would be too slow to block a bullet once the bullet is already in flight, similarly to yours. Of course, you don't care about that when using your move, since you can start to move your arm up a bit early because it's usually pretty obvious when someone is going to shoot you (and even if it's not obvious, you have foresight) - and if they change where they're aiming you can just twitch your arm a bit to suit. With his, however, he can't manipulate the rock once it's in flight, so he can't start getting the rock into position before someone fires, unless he's sure they're about to (but they could just change where they're aiming).

I don't think he'd need to say he throws it at bullet speed. It would be implied, based on what he's doing with the rock alone, that it's going to take effort and energy to pull off. 

It's not implied. He has to say it. If you do something in a move that's not an action someone could do irl, time constraints and speeds need to be described. If he's doing something beyond the realms of a normal person with his stats, that needs to be specified.

---

As for drawbacks, I agree. Point is, he needs to either get foresight (or focus on someone who he thinks is about to shoot), happen to have the rock in his hand ready to block something, and then specify that he's somehow able to throw rocks faster than usual. Or change the move to add the limitation of him only being able to reliably block slower attacks because rocks are slow. And then add any appropriate drawbacks where required.

[Handsome Jack]

I don't think he'd need to specify "bullet speed" in this case. Because it only needs to move as quickly as necessary to block a projectile. If I made a Bracers of Bullet Deflection Move, I wouldn't need to say "and these can be placed in the path of the bullet at bullet speed." It's assumed it moves quickly enough to serve the purpose it was purchased for. Use common sense. Mechanically, tossing a rock is no different from blocking it with a shield. Its personal flavour.

[Dane Regan]

I don't think he'd need to specify "bullet speed" in this case. Because it only needs to move as quickly as necessary to block a projectile. If I made a Bracers of Bullet Deflection Move, I wouldn't need to say "and these can be placed in the path of the bullet at bullet speed." It's assumed it moves quickly enough to serve the purpose it was purchased for. Use common sense.  Mechanically, tossing a rock is no different from blocking it with a shield. Its personal flavour.

Oh, yeah. Maybe not bullet speed specifically. He'd just need to clarify that it moves fast enough to block the attack. Like a well-timed small shield.

It's like how I don't specify how fast Viola can spin her swords. I just say "they can spin fast enough to theoretically block a bullet" or something like that.

[Trixie]

And that's my problem with Vash's move blocking bullets in its current state. The time it takes to execute would be too slow to block a bullet once the bullet is already in flight, similarly to yours. Of course, you don't care about that when using your move, since you can start to move your arm up a bit early because it's usually pretty obvious when someone is going to shoot you (and even if it's not obvious, you have foresight) - and if they change where they're aiming you can just twitch your arm a bit to suit. With his, however, he can't manipulate the rock once it's in flight, so he can't start getting the rock into position before someone fires, unless he's sure they're about to (but they could just change where they're aiming).

I concede to your points about speed. I'm not confident enough to blatantly say "no not in this case" so let's work on the quoted paragraph. The same goes for a bullet. It can't be manipulated. That's why I told Sasuke Enhanced Senses. In my head, Vash is calculating the trajectory it would take for the rock to intercept the bullet and tosses it at sufficient speed to do so. If he has EH, describes the speed well enough, and adds the drawbacks that are reasonable and make sense. There is no reason he can't do this. Without Foresight even.  

TEC translates to predicting the bullets path, because he's able to deflect. Hearing the shot would give him the queue to activate the move or to deflect the bullet. We're not talking 100% here Dane. That should be implied. If someone writes a move like CQS or this as blocking 100% of the time that's god modding and against the rules, my friend.

[Trixie]

I don't think he'd need to specify "bullet speed" in this case. Because it only needs to move as quickly as necessary to block a projectile. If I made a Bracers of Bullet Deflection Move, I wouldn't need to say "and these can be placed in the path of the bullet at bullet speed." It's assumed it moves quickly enough to serve the purpose it was purchased for. Use common sense.  Mechanically, tossing a rock is no different from blocking it with a shield. Its personal flavour.

This is all I'm saying.

[Dane Regan]

Yeah. Enhanced senses would be one way to do it, but if he sees the gun the bullet was fired from (or the bow that fired the arrow - etc.), he easily has the TEC to tell where the bullet is going to go. If he's focusing.

My general preference for moves is to always clarify. If someone describes themself doing something that wouldn't normally be possible, I'd like a clarification on how. Just something small such as "the rock moves as fast as he needs it to". If a move won't work every time, it should generally be specified. Not specifying that is actually detrimental to the user, since having a low success rate or having it only work in very specific conditions can allow for either a boost in power or for fewer or more negligible drawbacks being required.

Hearing the shot would give him the queue to activate the move

Technically, no. Bullets travel at about the speed of sound, sometimes a bit slower, sometimes quite a lot faster. That's why he'd need to be watching either with his own eyes, or by using ES. And he'd probably need to be focusing on the gun (or have foresight) to know the bullet trajectory.

[Trixie]

Hearing the shot would give him the queue to activate the move

Technically, no. Bullets travel at about the speed of sound, sometimes a bit slower, sometimes quite a lot faster. That's why he'd need to be watching either with his own eyes, or by using ES. And he'd probably need to be focusing on the gun (or have foresight) to know the bullet trajectory.

I mean, now we're entering semantics here. He's obviously going to have to specify in the move that he's focusing. Speed of Sound brings more real world stuff into Omniphysics. It doesn't apply directly here. Yes, a rifle round is going to beat the sound to your target. It also depends on how close you are to the gun when it's fired. 

I agree if he writes the move as concentrating or gets ES he can do this. 

My general preference for moves is to always clarify. If someone describes themself doing something that wouldn't normally be possible, I'd like a clarification on how. Just something small such as "the rock moves as fast as he needs it to". If a move won't work every time, it should generally be specified. Not specifying that is actually detrimental to the user, since having a low success rate or having it only work in very specific conditions can allow for either a boost in power or for fewer or more negligible drawbacks being required.

I agree in the context of making a move stronger or weaker. It's a given that no move is going to block anything 100% of the time. That's why fights are graded and read. If you're bouncing around dodging everything and your opponent can't hit you no matter what, that's just poor writing. I look at a blocking move as a tool to be used if I can and reasonably. Right?

[Dane Regan]

Speed of Sound brings more real world stuff into Omniphysics. It's doesn't apply here. Yes, a rifle round is going to beat the sound to your target. It also depends on how close you are to the gun when it's fired.

I agree if he writes the move as concentrating or gets ES he can do this.

Speed of sound always applies. That's what would happen, so that's really what you should write. Similarly, you can't just ignore gravity in your posts because it's convenient (gross exaggeration, I know).

If he has ES, he should still concentrate, at least a bit. If he's focusing on something else he won't be able to calculate the trajectory and react. ES is the same as seeing 'everything'. If you aren't looking at something with your mind, it's going to be a bit fuzzy. Like peripheral vision.

It's a given that no move is going to block anything 100% of the time. That's why fights are graded and read. If you're bouncing around dodging everything and your opponent can't hit you no matter what, that's just poor writing. I look at a blocking move as a tool to be used if I can and reasonably. Right?

My preference is to still say that in the move, unless the reaction or execution time is made obvious. It gives a nice explicit writing prompt. Obviously, Dane won't always be able to lift his shield in time, that's implied by his stats. But if someone makes a move that says "Jimmy does X to block Y", it's not always going to be as clear. And for any moves that are a more unconventional way of doing things, I'm going to ask someone to include or at least acknowledge how hard it would be to use. I don't know whether the writer of the move thinks their move will always work, or will sometimes work. It might seem obvious to me or you, but I prefer to make sure.

So, often, I might say something like, "approved, but just remember X". Unless X is a big-ish thing, when I'll ask for a clarification. It's comparable to someone writing "A sharp sword capable of slashing through flesh with ease." Like, while they might know it won't be easy against someone with 5 DEF, do I know they know? Or "this gun can shoot accurately up to 100m". The gun might be that accurate, but is the person shooting it? Obviously, I'd never force someone to write about that in the move, but I do tend to add a comment next to my approval about that.

I want to avoid any later argument about "my move says I can do this, so I will write my character doing this".

So, yes, you're correct. But I want to get either a clarification within the move, or an acknowledgement from the move writer, about whether they understand that. Paranoid or not, it's sorting out an issue before it happens.

[Trixie]

My preference is to still say that in the move, unless the reaction or execution time is made obvious. It gives a nice explicit writing prompt. Obviously, Dane won't always be able to lift his shield in time, that's implied by his stats. But if someone makes a move that says "Jimmy does X to block Y", it's not always going to be as clear. And for any moves that are a more unconventional way of doing things, I'm going to ask someone to include or at least acknowledge how hard it would be to use. I don't know whether the writer of the move thinks their move will always work, or will sometimes work. It might seem obvious to me or you, but I prefer to make sure.

So, often, I might say something like, "approved, but just remember X". Unless X is a big-ish thing, when I'll ask for a clarification. It's comparable to someone writing "A sharp sword capable of slashing through flesh with ease." Like, while they might know it won't be easy against someone with 5 DEF, do I know they know? Or "this gun can shoot accurately up to 100m". The gun might be that accurate, but is the person shooting it? Obviously, I'd never force someone to write about that in the move, but I do tend to add a comment next to my approval about that.

I want to avoid any later argument about "my move says I can do this, so I will write my character doing this".

So, yes, you're correct. But I want to get either a clarification within the move, or an acknowledgement from the move writer, about whether they understand that. Paranoid or not, it's sorting out an issue before it happens.

I completely agree from a development point of view. It comes down to how you want to run things. Do you want to cut that off at the pass or make it perfectly clear that god-modding and the sort will be met harshly and handle incidents as they come up? Clarification is always good. I just think, sometimes, it gets too complicated in certain moves. As far as what I said about sound. I thought my edit went through. I merely meant that real world physics don't 100% apply here, but I agree. Sound does play a part and of course gravity does. I don't know where my edit went so I concede that point. I agree. 

I need to start dinner so while this has been a good back and forth I want to finalize where we landed on Vash's move, because I don't want to keep him waiting or keep members on edge for our ruling on it.

He can make a defense move that uses a rock to deflect projectiles. He just needs to describe that he focuses on the person, throws it at an intercepting velocity, get ES if he wants it to have 360 coverage, and word it properly. Correct? Am I missing anything?

[Dane Regan]

I just think, sometimes, it gets too complicated in certain moves.

It does. 

He can make a defense move that uses a rock to deflect projectiles. He just needs to describe that he focuses on the person, throws it at an intercepting velocity, get ES if he wants it to have 360 coverage, and word it properly. Correct? Am I missing anything?

That's correct. He also doesn't need the TEC vs ATK comparison he had before. But should add something like, "effectiveness is based on TEC". I'd also be fine with him deflecting a slower ranged attack regardless of if he was focusing on someone.

[James Knight]

These moves are for an NPC Prime that I will begin writing here on the Omniverse. 

Wazikashi (300, Physical Strength): 

A Wazikashi that has a 25 inch long blade, and red and black leather wrappings on the hilt. No special properties, just a basic sword that is wielded by Jason for his own use. 

Combat Knife (300, Physical Strength): 

A combat knife that has a 12 inch blade,  with a rubber grip. This knife has seen Jason through many battles, and is his favorite knife. It can clash with lightsabers, and similar weapons rather easily.

[Dane Regan]

15 inches is pretty short for a sword.

But otherwise those are fine, Warren.