Move Creation Workshop

[Shantotto]

It's a very solid move Mr 70 billion double dollar ma but you don't need to limit yourself by the mass or weight of a projectile rather just say "large projectiles can not be stopped" or something like that

[Vash]

Alright, Thank you! o7

edit:
however, it is 60 million double dollars, good sir.

[Handsome Jack]

Projectile Deflection -300 OM (Ranged Attack Proficiency)
Vash, using his sharp senses and wit, can predict where many projectiles will end up. By throwing rocks or other hard objects in his vicinity Vash can deflect individual physical projectiles such as bullets, arrows, bolts, or other forms of small ballistic munitions one at a time. This will only work if Vash can see the source of the projectile (unless it moves at an exorbitantly slow pace), it isn't excessively large, and his TEC is equal to or exceeds the ATK of the weapon being used.

You realise bullets travel a lot faster than thrown rocks, right? In many cases, you would have to be throwing a rock before the bullet is even fired. I'm fine with you throwing a rock or something like that to bounce away a thrown grenade or another rock, or a magical spell that doesn't travel really fast, but even with 5 TEC, doing it against a bullet is just kinda silly. You would need a stupidly high SPD stat to be able to flick your arm fast enough for the rock to really leave your hand before a bullet hits you. Heck, you would have to be predicting where they're going to shoot before they've even finished aiming in some situations (which would naturally be impossible since they'd just aim somewhere where the rock isn't).

If you want to pull off something crazy like this, you'd be better off getting the foresight power and a move that lets you try to shoot enemy bullets or ranged attacks as the fire them. Or make your thrown rock move only work for enemy attacks that you'd reasonably be able to react to.

I don't think what he's asking for is out of the realm of possibility. Vash has a solid Tec, and his Move states that he has to see where the attack is coming from to deflect it, which says to me that he's throwing the rock before the shot is fired by guessing the angle of the shot. That's not even impossible for regular people in life, let alone someone enhanced with Omniphysics. We've had several instances where relatively slow and unskilled people, without Foresight, could raise a defense to block or deflect projectiles. The rock throw in this Move is just flavour for something we've approved a thousand times before.

The only issue I see doesn't have anything to do with whether the Move is viable, but with limiting it for balance. As written, Vash is immune to projectiles by anyone with 4 Atk or less. Too OP. I'd remove that part and simply put it: "multiple near-simultaneous projectiles, or incredible powerful ones, are unaffected by this defense measure" or something like that. Maybe add something about it causing light fatigue when used often, and/or that deflecting in this manner means Vash cannot attack back.

[Shantotto]

I do have to agree with procrastodile, in the real world we have bullets like the 9x19 parabellum that travel at about 1200 feet per second as well as others like the .338 Lapua that travel at 3000 feet per second. These speeds are ridiculous to use in Omniverse fightes where the common distance of combat is under 100 feet.

We have magic and the like as well as guns that only shoot 12 feet in front of them before the bullet disappears

[Dane Regan]

If he wants to throw a rock before the bullet is fired, he'll need foresight. Since how does he know they're actually going to pull the trigger or haven't finished adjusting their shot? It would just be a "lucky guess". If he wants to adjust his move to add in the possibility of failure, then sure.

It's fine to raise or twist a sword quickly to try and block a shot. And in some cases you'll succeed and some you won't. That's allowed if you've got the TEC and the right move. But twisting a sword is a lot quicker than throwing a rock. I can't think of any unskilled people who can do that without foresight though. I guess Viola's timekeeper move could maybe allow it. But Vash has 5 TEC so that's irrelevant here.

As for your balance comments, I agree with not making it based on stats like that. 4 ATK let's normal moves smash concrete so a rock won't do a lot against some ranged attacks. But it's implied Vash can't do it often, since he needs to actually have picked up a rock and thrown it. If three bullets come, he'll run out of rocks. I was going to sort out balance after I'd sussed out exactly what was happening.

[Trixie]

See, I'm going to have to say that we're making this too complicated. He's using a rock to counter a shot. You don't need Foresight to do that. You'd need Foresight to counter the person going for their weapon, but making a Move that hits a projectile in the air on the way to them should be fine. I have one. Close Quarters Shielding stops melee and ranged. In it's track. Cold. Dead. As long as she has the stamina to create the shield around her hand, she's blocking.

[Dane Regan]

I do have to agree with procrastodile, in the real world we have bullets like the 9x19 parabellum that travel at about 1200 feet per second as well as others like the .338 Lapua that travel at 3000 feet per second. These speeds are ridiculous to use in Omniverse fightes where the common distance of combat is under 100 feet.

We have magic and the like as well as guns that only shoot 12 feet in front of them before the bullet disappears

You can have any attack move as fast as you want it to. But the faster it is, without other drawbacks to offset that, the less damaging it is. There's no direct linear scale or anything, and something that travels twice as fast won't reasonably do half the damage. But there is a notable difference between normal thrown objects, arrow-speed, bullet-speed, and attacks that travel as fast as lightning. The latter of which basically can't even miss unless you point in the wrong place or the attack is naturally inaccurate.

[Dane Regan]

See, I'm going to have to say that we're making this too complicated. He's using a rock to counter a shot. You don't need Foresight to do that. You'd need Foresight to counter the person going for their weapon, but making a Move that hits a projectile in the air on the way to them should be fine. I have one. Close Quarters Shielding stops melee and ranged. In it's track. Cold. Dead. As long as she has the stamina to create the shield around her hand, she's blocking.

If he wants to make a shield - or do something equivalent - he can do that. But tossing a rock is inherently different and comes with different strengths, weaknesses, and drawbacks. Yes, it's countering or blocking an attack. But, he cannot reasonably toss up a rock to reliably block ranged attacks that have not even been fired yet.

[Trixie]

See, I'm going to have to say that we're making this too complicated. He's using a rock to counter a shot. You don't need Foresight to do that. You'd need Foresight to counter the person going for their weapon, but making a Move that hits a projectile in the air on the way to them should be fine. I have one. Close Quarters Shielding stops melee and ranged. In it's track. Cold. Dead. As long as she has the stamina to create the shield around her hand, she's blocking.

If he wants to make a shield - or do something equivalent - he can do that. But tossing a rock is inherently different and comes with different strengths, weaknesses, and drawbacks. Yes, it's countering or blocking an attack. But, he cannot reasonably toss up a rock to reliably block ranged attacks that have not even been fired yet.

No, I'm saying he can reasonably toss a rock to counter bullets that have been fired. If he has Enhanced Senses, that's perfectly viable. Countering the action of shooting would require Foresight.

[Dane Regan]

Oh, yeah. He could toss a rock to block something after it's been fired. But if that thing is a bullet, he's not going to be able to toss the rock fast enough. Which is the main problem here.

Tossing a rock to stop a rock - as you said - is totally fine.

[Trixie]

Oh, yeah. He could toss a rock to block something after it's been fired. But if that thing is a bullet, he's not going to be able to toss the rock fast enough. Which is the main problem here.

Tossing a rock to stop a rock - as you said - is totally fine.

While in real life that would apply, in the Omniverse a bullet and a rock have the same mechanics when it comes to combat. So if his move was to use a rock to counter an incoming bullet, it would work. That's how the universe was designed. It's literally Omniphysics at it's core. The same reason my lightsaber doesn't cut everyone in half by default.

[Gilgamesh]

Considering that a SPD of 3 can “outdraw” Billy the Kid I think it would be reasonable for his reflexes to be fast enough to intercept the bullet if he had enough speed and Tec to actually block it

[Dane Regan]

A bullet and a rock do not currently have the same mechanics.

1) They are different sizes.
2) They move at different speeds.

That said, he could throw a bullet sized rock at bullet speed if he wanted to. But he cannot do that without specifying it in the move (otherwise his rock will move at normal rock speed).

Secondly, even if he did make the rock go faster, this move would have a limited success rate. He's not normally going to be able to react in time to throw the rock after they shoot their bullet - not while the bullet is already in the air. With foresight he could start to react a bit before they shoot, or at least prepare for when they shoot. But if someone in his vision just happens to shoot at him, he's not going to be able to react in time. If he wanted he could focus on an opponent (as part of the move) to allow him to toss his rock super fast the moment they shoot. But in the moves current state, he would not be able to block bullets.

[Trixie]

A bullet and a rock do not currently have the same mechanics.

1) They are different sizes.
2) They move at different speeds.

That said, he could throw a bullet sized rock at bullet speed if he wanted to. But he cannot do that without specifying it in the move (otherwise his rock will move at normal rock speed).

Secondly, even if he did make the rock go faster, this move would have a limited success rate. He's not normally going to be able to react in time to throw the rock after they shoot their bullet. If he wanted he could focus on an opponent (as part of the move) to allow him to toss his rock super fast the moment they shoot. But in the moves current state, he would not be able to block bullets.

You're making this way too complex than it needs to be. There is nothing in the rules about different objects having different velocities. That's all hocus pocus people have been adding in the last 6 months. In the Omniverse a rock and a bullet, in a PvP fight, have the same damaging capabilities. Greg built the system to be that simple. There is no question about it. If I wanted to make a move where I use the Force to use debris around me to defend against projectiles I could. It doesn't matter if I'm being shot with Armor Piercing Rounds or not. The only thing that matters is whether or not it's a normal move I'm defending against or a Super Move, in which case I'd have to match the strength within the system.

[Dane Regan]

Yes there is. Every move where the velocity of something isn't obvious, it's specified.

A rock move, where the rock moves at thrown speed, will be more damaging than a bullet moving at bullet speed because the bullet is harder to dodge. (Assuming they both take the same time to initially execute and have the same drawbacks, if any, ect.)

[Trixie]

Yes there is. Every move where the velocity of something isn't obvious, it's specified.

A rock move, where the rock moves at thrown speed, will be more damaging than a bullet moving at bullet speed because the bullet is harder to dodge. (Assuming they both take the same time to initially execute and have the same drawbacks, if any, ect.)

I don't know when that started, but it wasn't always the case. Case and point my pistol move: 

Czerka Arms Mk1 Energy Pistol:

The first in a long line of self-sustained energy pistols created by Czerka. This particular model served as a test dummy which led to the mass produced version. The Mk2. Czerka Arms, seeing an opportunity to make money, offered these pistols on the black market to any buyer after they had obtained all relevant data from them. The Mk1 was the first snub-nosed concealable pistol that was powered by a self-sustaining fusion battery core. Maintenance and core replacement were as easy as removing a few screws and sliding the battery out and putting a new battery in. What stopped Czerka Arms from putting this weapon to mass production was that even though it was highly accurate, it only held four shots before the weapon needed to rebuild its energy charge. One shot could be fired every three seconds with the weapon needing a full twelve seconds to fully charge itself. Four yellow status lights on the grip notified the user of how many shots it had. Making up for the lack of capable shots was the weapons power. It packed a considerable harder punch than pistols in the same class and had better stopping power and penetration. Features that were eventually adjusted and improved upon with the Mk2. Even today the Mk1 still hits harder than most pistols in its class.

I'd argue that the speed of the energy bolt being shot out of that pistol isn't obvious and yet, if Vash wanted to make a move that could use a rock to deflect one of the bolts, he could. Because this is the Omniverse. Prime's do heroic shit.

[Dane Regan]

The speed of the lasers is assumed to be bullet speed. Since it's a gun. But, yes, if I saw that in approval I'd ask you to clarify that.

If Vash wants to deflect something moving at bullet speed, he needs to reasonably be able to do that. Either by making a shield beforehand, or having the right stats and focusing on the person shooting so he can counter it the moment they shoot, or by having foresight.

[Sasuke Uchiha]

The bottom line is, the rules say with 4 tech you can deflect projectiles, Vash has five. The how isn't a factor for determining success, it's only a factor for requiring certain powers and profeciencies.

IE: He should be able to use rocks to deflect bullets, so long as he's paid for it to be a move and it's not incidental.

[Trixie]

If Vash wants to deflect something moving at bullet speed, he needs to reasonably be able to do that. Either by making a shield beforehand, or having the right stats and focusing on the person shooting so he can counter it the moment they shoot, or by having foresight.

I agree. All I'm saying here, Dane, is that he can. He has a TEC of 4, which by itself states that you can deflect projectiles with a move. If he buys or has Enhanced Senses, this move is within reason regardless of the speed of the projectile he's trying to deflect. Foresight alerts you to events before they happen. Countering at the time of would be considered a reaction to the shot, not something he'd have to see into the future to predict. Like I said earlier, if he wanted to hit the persons hand to knock their gun out before the shot took place. That would require Foresight.

The bottom line is, the rules say with 4 tech you can deflect projectiles, Vash has five. The how isn't a factor for determining success, it's only a factor for requiring certain powers and profeciencies.

He has a TEC of 4 <3

[Dane Regan]

The bottom line is, the rules say with 4 tech you can deflect projectiles, Vash has five. The how isn't a factor for determining success, it's only a factor for requiring certain powers and profeciencies.

The "how" is a factor for determining whether or not it would be possible. The "how" also determines how likely success is, and the sort of drawbacks that would be required. Some actions are naturally easier or harder than others. The easier methods would naturally need more drawbacks. I'm just saying a normal speed rock isn't going to block a bullet. The action would be too slow.

@Trix: I'm not desputing his right to deflect projectiles. I'm just saying he would need to add something about throwing the rock faster if he wants to block bullets. Or do it some other concievable way. And without foresight, he'd probably need to be focusing on the shooter.