11-22-2015, 08:09 AM
So, Alexyana and I have been wondering about this whole Underverse thing quite a bit lately, so we decided we would write a post about it together.
First, we want to state that we want this to be a reasonable discussion regarding the topic, not an argument nor a fight. If you cannot keep it civil and mature, or you feel that you’re getting too emotionally involved, we kindly request that you would take a breather and come back later.
Quoting Proto Mouse on that, (Or sources for these statements)
here
and
here.
For the lazy, there are quotes inside the spoiler.
[spoiler]
But we must ask. Is this really how it should be?
While we completely understand, that much like Proto said, there's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse, we feel that the Banishment stops being a “punishment” for the character (an interesting and challenging storyline to have) and becomes a punishment to the player instead.
The 20-40k word requirement is a big obstacle to pass. It takes a comparatively long time to scrap together, especially if you’re adamant on writing an enjoyable story out of it. This however isn’t the issue in our opinion. In our opinion, the issue is the choice you’re forced to make.
If your only option to escape the Underverse is to make a decision that you know your character wouldn’t make (For example, joining Diablo) you will have no motivation to write the quest out to begin with.
Of course, characters that would willingly join Diablo, are exempt from this as joining Him and His army would be their goal. Good characters however, are at risk of being completely destroyed if they don’t go through a major change because like said, the majority of them wouldn’t make the decision to join Diablo, to begin with.
This would mean the player has to choose between:
1. Accepting their fate and leaving the character in Underverse forever.
2. OOC:ly deciding to have the character make a decision that they would never make, just to get them out. (Becoming Diablo’s subordinate)
3. Trying to lie to Diablo, and if the character escapes and gets banished again (which they likely would, as mentioned in the reasoning above), stay in the Underverse forever, as Diablo wouldn’t likely let them out due to lying already the last time.
4. Resetting the character.
Arguments broken down to a list can be found below. This also includes things not mentioned in the above post, so please do take a peek.
[spoiler]- 250 OM for a Banishment Circle is really cheap. Usually the fight preceding the Banishment alone is sufficient to cover for that expense. In comparison to other consumables, it seems very powerful for its price.
Just as an example: for 250 OM you can get one pill or an Elixir, which mildly raise your chances of victory in a battle that you can fail even with that item being used. The item is consumed regardless of the battle’s outcome, whereas your Banishment Circle is only consumed after the battle if you win it.
- The Underverse forces you to take a decision - become Diablo’s subordinate, go for a betrayal and risk never being able to leave the Underverse again, should you be banished a second time (Diablo doesn’t exactly seem like the forgiving individual), or stay down there. The only other option is to reset your character and start out fresh, which to most people is not an option.
This decision severely cuts into the liberty of roleplaying your character the way you want them to, down to the point of making you entirely unable to play them.
- The risk of being banished a second time is relatively high. Many people will know that you have been banished IC:ly (as a Banishment typically is the result of a faction war or a Bounty-Hunt, in the former case the faction members would know about this, in the latter case the Bounty-boards would display the person as banished), and that’s without counting characters who use Insight.
Thus if you escape the Underverse, there’s a high chance that you are Diablo’s servant now - more than enough reason to banish you again. Plus, the faction you were banished or Bounty-ed by is probably not going to forget about you. This could also spread from them, to the other factions, turning you into a target.
The Banisher might also be afraid of you wanting revenge on them, and thus take action before you can, banishing you again.
- The Underverse doesn’t have many people for you to play with, so there’s little reason to stay down there and continue playing. There are no quests outside of the one about escaping it, no Void Portals, Artifacts or anything else.
This is likely due to the fact that the Underverse is meant to be most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse - it makes sense ICly -, but at this point it’s not making for a “challenging” place to play, it’s cutting into the fun of playing.[/spoiler]
An alternative quest line involving Tyrael which helps you get out. This could be more difficult than the Diablo questline, with 30k-40k words being the requirement.
A Void Quest - perhaps involving a one-way door to the Void, to prevent people from visiting the Underverse whenever they want to.
An alternative questline about your character obtaining a one-time Consumable that is the opposite to a Banishment Circle, allowing your character to unbanish themselves. For instance there could be an “illegal” arena fight similar to Diablo’s tournament with an Anti banishment Circle being put out as prize, or Diablo could have such items at hand which he uses to unbanish Primes, which can be stolen.
A questline in a similar vein to Lord of the Rings, where Frodo, Sam and Gollum were able to enter Mordor through a “sneak path”. It involves finding a way around the Black Gate into Camelot , guarded by an extremely powerful demon that must somehow be defeated - which would likely be a group quest like the Vasty Deep Void Quest, rather than for a single person.
Finally, we would like to thank you for making it through the post. Feedback is very much appreciated, but remember: please keep it civil.
First, we want to state that we want this to be a reasonable discussion regarding the topic, not an argument nor a fight. If you cannot keep it civil and mature, or you feel that you’re getting too emotionally involved, we kindly request that you would take a breather and come back later.
The Issue
It has been said multiple times that the only way out is through Diablo himself by becoming his lackey. In addition to that, the quest line itself requires a 20 - 40k word amount of work.Quoting Proto Mouse on that, (Or sources for these statements)
here
and
here.
For the lazy, there are quotes inside the spoiler.
[spoiler]
Proto Mouse Wrote:I hate to be the bad guy, but unless an additional quest is released or the current quest description is changed/expanded, Diablo is the only way out.
You are free to do whatever else you'd like to in the Underverse, but the only individual with a way out of the Underverse is Diablo.
Proto Mouse Wrote:@Nealaphh - No. All Tyrael can do is act as a guide for primes. He'll ultimately tell the prime that only Diablo has the route out. Please note it says 'He can point you in the right direction.' That direction? Diablo.[/spoiler]
@Pendragon - You have to become his lackey. This is the Prime Evil we're talking about. He's not going to just let you out because you got bloody.
There's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the Omniverse.
But we must ask. Is this really how it should be?
While we completely understand, that much like Proto said, there's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse, we feel that the Banishment stops being a “punishment” for the character (an interesting and challenging storyline to have) and becomes a punishment to the player instead.
The 20-40k word requirement is a big obstacle to pass. It takes a comparatively long time to scrap together, especially if you’re adamant on writing an enjoyable story out of it. This however isn’t the issue in our opinion. In our opinion, the issue is the choice you’re forced to make.
If your only option to escape the Underverse is to make a decision that you know your character wouldn’t make (For example, joining Diablo) you will have no motivation to write the quest out to begin with.
Of course, characters that would willingly join Diablo, are exempt from this as joining Him and His army would be their goal. Good characters however, are at risk of being completely destroyed if they don’t go through a major change because like said, the majority of them wouldn’t make the decision to join Diablo, to begin with.
This would mean the player has to choose between:
1. Accepting their fate and leaving the character in Underverse forever.
2. OOC:ly deciding to have the character make a decision that they would never make, just to get them out. (Becoming Diablo’s subordinate)
3. Trying to lie to Diablo, and if the character escapes and gets banished again (which they likely would, as mentioned in the reasoning above), stay in the Underverse forever, as Diablo wouldn’t likely let them out due to lying already the last time.
4. Resetting the character.
Arguments broken down to a list can be found below. This also includes things not mentioned in the above post, so please do take a peek.
[spoiler]- 250 OM for a Banishment Circle is really cheap. Usually the fight preceding the Banishment alone is sufficient to cover for that expense. In comparison to other consumables, it seems very powerful for its price.
Just as an example: for 250 OM you can get one pill or an Elixir, which mildly raise your chances of victory in a battle that you can fail even with that item being used. The item is consumed regardless of the battle’s outcome, whereas your Banishment Circle is only consumed after the battle if you win it.
- The Underverse forces you to take a decision - become Diablo’s subordinate, go for a betrayal and risk never being able to leave the Underverse again, should you be banished a second time (Diablo doesn’t exactly seem like the forgiving individual), or stay down there. The only other option is to reset your character and start out fresh, which to most people is not an option.
This decision severely cuts into the liberty of roleplaying your character the way you want them to, down to the point of making you entirely unable to play them.
- The risk of being banished a second time is relatively high. Many people will know that you have been banished IC:ly (as a Banishment typically is the result of a faction war or a Bounty-Hunt, in the former case the faction members would know about this, in the latter case the Bounty-boards would display the person as banished), and that’s without counting characters who use Insight.
Thus if you escape the Underverse, there’s a high chance that you are Diablo’s servant now - more than enough reason to banish you again. Plus, the faction you were banished or Bounty-ed by is probably not going to forget about you. This could also spread from them, to the other factions, turning you into a target.
The Banisher might also be afraid of you wanting revenge on them, and thus take action before you can, banishing you again.
- The Underverse doesn’t have many people for you to play with, so there’s little reason to stay down there and continue playing. There are no quests outside of the one about escaping it, no Void Portals, Artifacts or anything else.
This is likely due to the fact that the Underverse is meant to be most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse - it makes sense ICly -, but at this point it’s not making for a “challenging” place to play, it’s cutting into the fun of playing.[/spoiler]
Proposed solutions
An alternative quest line involving Tyrael which helps you get out. This could be more difficult than the Diablo questline, with 30k-40k words being the requirement.
A Void Quest - perhaps involving a one-way door to the Void, to prevent people from visiting the Underverse whenever they want to.
An alternative questline about your character obtaining a one-time Consumable that is the opposite to a Banishment Circle, allowing your character to unbanish themselves. For instance there could be an “illegal” arena fight similar to Diablo’s tournament with an Anti banishment Circle being put out as prize, or Diablo could have such items at hand which he uses to unbanish Primes, which can be stolen.
A questline in a similar vein to Lord of the Rings, where Frodo, Sam and Gollum were able to enter Mordor through a “sneak path”. It involves finding a way around the Black Gate into Camelot , guarded by an extremely powerful demon that must somehow be defeated - which would likely be a group quest like the Vasty Deep Void Quest, rather than for a single person.
Finally, we would like to thank you for making it through the post. Feedback is very much appreciated, but remember: please keep it civil.
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