Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline

[Tom Marvolo Riddle]

The Issue

It has been said multiple times that the only way out is through Diablo himself by becoming his lackey. In addition to that, the quest line itself requires a 20 - 40k word amount of work.

Quoting Proto Mouse on that, (Or sources for these statements)
here
and
here.
For the lazy, there are quotes inside the spoiler.
[spoiler]

I hate to be the bad guy, but unless an additional quest is released or the current quest description is changed/expanded, Diablo is the only way out.

You are free to do whatever else you'd like to in the Underverse, but the only individual with a way out of the Underverse is Diablo.

@Nealaphh - No. All Tyrael can do is act as a guide for primes. He'll ultimately tell the prime that only Diablo has the route out. Please note it says 'He can point you in the right direction.' That direction? Diablo.

@Pendragon - You have to become his lackey. This is the Prime Evil we're talking about. He's not going to just let you out because you got bloody.

There's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the Omniverse.

[/spoiler]

But we must ask. Is this really how it should be?
While we completely understand, that much like Proto said, there's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse, we feel that the Banishment stops being a “punishment” for the character (an interesting and challenging storyline to have) and becomes a punishment to the player instead.

The 20-40k word requirement is a big obstacle to pass. It takes a comparatively long time to scrap together, especially if you’re adamant on writing an enjoyable story out of it. This however isn’t the issue in our opinion. In our opinion, the issue is the choice you’re forced to make.
If your only option to escape the Underverse is to make a decision that you know your character wouldn’t make (For example, joining Diablo) you will have no motivation to write the quest out to begin with.

This would mean the player has to choose between:
1. Accepting their fate and leaving the character in Underverse forever.
2. OOC:ly deciding to have the character make a decision that they would never make, just to get them out. (Becoming Diablo’s subordinate)
3. Trying to lie to Diablo, and if the character escapes and gets banished again (which they likely would, as mentioned in the reasoning above), stay in the Underverse forever, as Diablo wouldn’t likely let them out due to lying already the last time.
4. Resetting the character.

I am only going to touch on the parts I have in bold. Diablo has the only exit and aiding his cause IS the only way out, however, no one said your character had to WILLINGLY do this. I agree in that we shouldn't force your character to act in a way they wouldn't, but nothing is stopping you from having your Character FORCED into service. It's hell, you could have your character chained and prodded the whole time.

You character doesn't have to DECIDE to enter the arena. You can literally have them thrown in; forced to partake. (Kicking and screaming about it the whole time) It's hell, you're probably going to be forced to do things you don't like. That doesn't mean you character has to CHOSE to do them. Have them forced and given no other option.

Remember folks: Its not what you say, but how you say it!

A railroad is rarely ever a good call for a GM to do to their players. If anything it generates ill will towards the circumstances a person is being shoved into.

[Guu]

I am only going to touch on the parts I have in bold. Diablo has the only exit and aiding his cause IS the only way out, however, no one said your character had to WILLINGLY do this. I agree in that we shouldn't force your character to act in a way they wouldn't, but nothing is stopping you from having your Character FORCED into service. It's hell, you could have your character chained and prodded the whole time.

You character doesn't have to DECIDE to enter the arena. You can literally have them thrown in; forced to partake. (Kicking and screaming about it the whole time) It's hell, you're probably going to be forced to do things you don't like. That doesn't mean you character has to CHOSE to do them. Have them forced and given no other option.

Remember folks: Its not what you say, but how you say it!

But that's still good enough to permanently ruined a good-alligned character. You can't say you stand for all that's good and justice if you've allied with the devil, even accidentally. Not to mention you could be disowned from every major faction over it, especially if it's common knowledge you've been banished. For example, I'm not sure how I could justify Guu continuing being a faction leader since her very presence at the top will make it difficult to get allies. I'd be forced to chose between working 10x as hard to win over everyone or just have my character stand down. The quest as it is written could potentially ruin anyone's planned storylines.

Generally, I would have no problem with this considering it's hell, but keep in mind that people are willing to bust out banishment circles for trivial things like base assaults, bounties no matter the severity of the crime, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time (in the case of Vi.) People on the surface treat banishment so lightly while people who are trapped down there are required to treat it like the harshest punishment to ever happen. That is not fair to the player considering how much is sacrificed on a whim.

[Tom Marvolo Riddle]

But that's still good enough to permanently ruined a good-alligned character. You can't say you stand for all that's good and justice if you've allied with the devil, even accidentally. Not to mention you could be disowned from every major faction over it, especially if it's common knowledge you've been banished. For example, I'm not sure how I could justify Guu continuing being a faction leader since her very presence at the top will make it difficult to get allies. I'd be forced to chose between working 10x as hard to win over everyone or just have my character stand down. The quest as it is written could potentially ruin anyone's planned storylines.

Generally, I would have no problem with this considering it's hell, but keep in mind that people are willing to bust out banishment circles for trivial things like base assaults, bounties no matter the severity of the crime, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time (in the case of Vi.) People on the surface treat banishment so lightly while people who are trapped down there are required to treat it like the harshest punishment to ever happen. That is not fair to the player considering how much is sacrificed on a whim.

A base assault personally is a very good reason to banish especially if its happened twice before. It sets a precedent that the owners of said base won't stand for people trying to rape and pillage their people and steal their stuff for simple greed and preconceived notions that have no basis in reality. While greed may be eternal, so will good punishment to deter a repeat offense against the same person. Its not the best solution. But as it is now, there is nothing stopping a person from dying and coming back to assault the same base again over and over again trollishly since moving bases is not exactly easy.

But beyond that and artefact head hunter? Yeah its a pretty harsh punishment that's meted out way to easily.

[Guu]

A base assault personally is a very good reason to banish especially if its happened twice before. It sets a precedent that the owners of said base won't stand for people trying to rape and pillage their people and steal their stuff for simple greed and preconceived notions that have no basis in reality. While greed may be eternal, so will good punishment to deter a repeat offense against the same person. Its not the best solution. But as it is now, there is nothing stopping a person from dying and coming back to assault the same base again over and over again trollishly since moving bases is not exactly easy.

But beyond that and artefact head hunter? Yeah its a pretty harsh punishment that's meted out way to easily.

Well, I sort of can see that, though in the NB base assault, even the people committing the assault are preparing to banish if they win.

Edit: Unless if they changed stance on that and I missed it.

[Tom Marvolo Riddle]

A base assault personally is a very good reason to banish especially if its happened twice before. It sets a precedent that the owners of said base won't stand for people trying to rape and pillage their people and steal their stuff for simple greed and preconceived notions that have no basis in reality. While greed may be eternal, so will good punishment to deter a repeat offense against the same person. Its not the best solution. But as it is now, there is nothing stopping a person from dying and coming back to assault the same base again over and over again trollishly since moving bases is not exactly easy.

But beyond that and artefact head hunter? Yeah its a pretty harsh punishment that's meted out way to easily.

Well, I sort of can see that, though in the NB base assault, even the people committing the assault are preparing to banish if they win.

Edit: Unless if they changed stance on that and I missed it.

Oh goody, I hope when Tom gets out that their characters have made appointments with the Coruscant Asylum. They are going to need it.

I am not joking about this either.

[The Dreamer]

I would just like to add a couple of my own cents.

I think Tom's suggested versions of additional Questlines is a very good example for a basis of mew questlines that will meet the needs of the many. I think, that if's it not already being done, that they should heavily be looked at by those in charge as a basis for new questlines, or at least inspirations for the angles to take when approaching new questline creation for the Underverse.


I have to agree with the stance on the inexpensiveness of Banishment Circles. The cost of 250OM and a win is, imo, to little for the winning party to balance out the costs the loser must deal with. Not only must they write quite the piece to return from the Underverse, but then for the rest of their IC life, they must deal with what is essentially the type of discrimination that some parolee's get when leaving prison, but to a magnitude so severe that it really could and probably would taint their IC life permanently. And I dont know about you, but if i were to play a character that was good-aligned, i know i would be hard-pressed to deal with that.

Edit: As a alternative to Banishment Circles that would add to the difficulty of their use, they could be reworked into physical places in the world that have been turned into Banishment circles as they function now, but are that way because of their already weak veil between this world and the Underverse. This would result in the ability to still banish Primes, but instead of doing it when you feel like it, your target must be taken as a prisoner, and brought to this place. Similar in form to how prisoners are caught and captured, then transported for execution. Changes the focus from and everyman's solution to more of a problem solver for institutions of govt or faction. Or you could lure your target to fight you near the In-World Circle for easier transport.

[Schwi Dola]

I would like to point out that one of two banished has been stuck there for almost half of a year ooc. That is a very long time.

[Thaal Sinestro]

Overall: I wish there were different ways to get out. I'm kind of in favor of a, "Write literally any 20k words, and you can be free" system.

Yes, 20k is a lot. that's also sort of the point? Maybe less though. Unsure.

[The Dreamer]

(Here) Nothing in the quest description says that.

Nothing.

And it's genuinely frustrating at this point. Maybe it's not the Underverse that's stifling? Maybe it's that people look at vague phrases and try to bludgeon them into literal facts and statements.

This topic is about Guu addressing some of her concerns. I'm not going to sit through another discussion about the Underverse when all of zero people have actually bothered to complete the quest. I'm done.

To be fair, no one has said anything otherwise in any capacity. Vague or not.

[Naruto Uzumaki]

What if one was to say... become a champion at the arena, and instead of becoming Diablo's lackey they make a deal?

Like say if you win something like, oh I don't know a Rock-Off of some sort then you get free passage from the Underverse. But if you lose you have no choice but to be his lackey?

[Guu]

I wonder, if multiple people do the quest at once, do they have to fight each other to decide who escapes? I wonder if the remaining have to do the quest again...

Sorry for all the frustration, Proto.

[Schwi Dola]

(Here) Nothing in the quest description says that.

Nothing.

And it's genuinely frustrating at this point. Maybe it's not the Underverse that's stifling? Maybe it's that people look at vague phrases and try to bludgeon them into literal facts and statements.

This topic is about Guu addressing some of her concerns. I'm not going to sit through another discussion about the Underverse when all of zero people have actually bothered to complete the quest. I'm done.

To be fair, no one has said anything otherwise in any capacity. Vague or not.

Only way out is ally Diablo. Therefore you must be evil or sign a pact to side with evil.

Geno could not complete the quest because he could never ally Diablo. He would either help Tyreal or other good people that have been banished but he would never escape the Underverse. His story ends.

[Roger Smith]

I would just like to point out that nowhere, at any point, in any capacity, does it mention anything along the lines of needing to become Diablo's lackey.

You don't have to work for Diablo, you don't have to sign any pact, you don't have to become his minion, lackey, join his army, or anything.

All you have to do is impress him enough in some capacity that warrants you being worth the trouble for him to get his giant demonic ass off his throne to send you back topside.

I don't know where the idea that you have to become Diablo's ass-clown minion to get out of the Underverse came from, but it's not true. By a long shot. And it is incredibly frustrating.

[Tom Marvolo Riddle]

You know.. all you need to get out of the underverse is: An eye patch, a goatee, a waist sash, a cat that always wants to be held and the ability to monologue. That's all.

[Guu]

If you can prove your worth to the Prime Evil, Diablo, he may see fit to send you to the world above; an agent of his unfathomable schemes.

[Roger Smith]

If you can prove your worth to the Prime Evil, Diablo, he may see fit to send you to the world above; an agent of his unfathomable schemes.

If this is in reference to the whole "joining Diablo" thing, it does nothing but reinforce my point.

[The Dreamer]

"an agent of his unfathomable schemes."

That seems to be the operative phrase in this discussion so far.

[Guu]

While it doesn't outright force your character evil, or to willingly join him, the fact that you're still a pawn is enough to derail a character.

Edit: can be enough to derail a character, some characters wouldn't be weighed down so much

[Roger Smith]

I mean, as I've said before, maybe the simple act of you being back topside at all is enough. Diablo is the Lord of Terror. Him sending you back topside could be all he needs to do to get the terror flowing, to let people know there IS a way back out of the Underverse, and to get them to panic and lose that sense of relative security that the Underverse is the most secure place there is, that it's an unescapable Hell.

That seems pretty clearly like you're being an agent of his schemes just by existing.

[Zack Fair]

My original alt character idea was sort of a loose cannon good guy, who I had a full Underverse quest imagined for. It would end with him being sent back up by Diablo, not because he began working for him, but instead because Diablo saw him as someone that would help destabilize the Omniverse in preparation for his return. So he would have technically been Diablo's pawn, unknowingly and unwittingly. Whether it worked would remain to be seen. That's just one interpretation of that single sentence.

That said, the discussions have made it abundantly clear to me that I don't have a damn clue about the Underverse and escaping it, so I'm checking out of this one and hoping I don't get sent there any time soon.