Discussion and Attitude

[The Dreamer]

You know, I feel it troubling to see the how things are being discussed in some cases around the site as of recent. It seems that more often than not, anyone who expresses a desires to discuss and question the way something functions seems to be shut down very quickly at the hands of some who hold a position of power within the site.

Examples of this being the recent discussion on Water Walking, as well as the whole "Clone Debacle".

It confuses me as to why, when presented with questions about how and why something works the way it does, and question of if it's something that should be considered for change, that said questions are met with harsh responses that reduce down to "This is the way it works period." Shouldn't they instead be met with deliberation on said question(s) merits and, based on its weight relative to the site and it's workings, if there is in fact something that needs changing?

An example of this in action would be the discussion on Time Manipulation that resulted in it's price reduction.

In that case, things were actively discussed and supported with facts, theories, and then accompanied by proposed ideas. This, i believe, should be the way things are handled when it comes to discussion of site and rule functions and the potential change thereof.

The general attitude, I feel, that is held by a number of individuals with power is this;
that they more seem to enforce the rules, rather than seek to consider every angle presented by those that may question it in an intelligent manner. And that anyone who would question the way things work is one who is trying to break or stretch the rules. More often than not, those who question these things are not blatantly trying to bend the rules to favor them, but instead see how far they can take the tools that have been given, and what they can do with them. And isnt that the kind of creative skills that we as writers pride ourselves in nurturing?

Now, no where among these questions and statements do i mean to point fingers, seek revenge for any ruling that may have affected myself in anyway, or say that the staff as a whole is anything but the most helpful and respectful they can be, but instead to hopefully bring to light what seems to be a vast miscommunication and general misplaced attitude that often arises between those that question the system for the better, and those that must abide by it as per their job.

There is always room for improvement in any system, any while I make no accusations as to the worth of the systems we have in place now, I ask this; we have come together to effect change of these systems for the betterment of the site before, so why shouldn't we continue to ponder its could-be faults, and its might-be improvements.

Thank you for your time and i hope any who respond would do so with respect and an intellectual process of thought.

[Minato Namikaze]

I'm saying this now so that it's out there. Desco's concerns were valid, but what he failed to realize that Ururu's chakra walking Technique, and any subsequent 'walking on a surface that you can't normally walk on' technique holds a high enough advantage above others that would not normally be there. That is why it is required to be a move.

That being said, multiple Angels addressed this concern and told him why it is how it is. He still chose to try and argue/ present ways against this fact. That is why I locked the thread. I felt that the conversation/ discussion that was going on was just repeated points and that it was going nowhere. So I locked it and then left it up to Omni and Proto to address, if they so desired.

[The Dreamer]

Yes Minato, I did read the entire thread and understood the situation that went on. All points you just made are clearly marked upon the pages of those threads.

If I had any further input upon the subject of WaterWalking and it's merits as RP Fodder vs Cost-Appropriate Move, I would have made them known within that thread, but as the Thread is closed, my points are null.

The statement i made was not to discuss WaterWalking, Desco or the Angels conduct, or anything about the Topic(s) discussed in that Thread, but instead to discuss the apparent division between the new staff and the non-staff that has seem to come about as a result of the very rapid addition of new staff members.

As we are all writers, I believe that it would not be a stretch to assume most, if not all of us, have the advanced ability to discuss and reason about nearly any topic. Although as of recent events, i feel these skills are not being used by both parties to much effectiveness. As I stated, many a time responses boil down to "That's the way it works period," which is then followed up by something akin to "Yes, but why does it work that way? Is there merit for improvement upon it?" Both of these statements often fall on the deaf ears of the other party in the discussion, and I see little reason as to why such methods should continue.

I hope you better understand the point I was trying to make, and they questions I was trying to ask.

[Minato Namikaze]

Yes, I do. But, unfortunately, in the water walking thread and the 'Clone Debacle' it comes down to the core system of how we look at moves, how we determine their power and then how we price them accordingly. That all works pretty much perfectly. If it didn't, then in the two or so years the site has been running for, there would have been changes to it.

It's entirely different to the discussion of why a power/ proficiency costs what it does, when you could do something else for the same effect and have it cost less.

That being said, some discussions, lately, have been a little on the aggressive side and I think that should be avoided.

[The Dreamer]

Honestly, I really dont think you are understanding me.

While I have not been a prat of this site for quite as long as others, I have heard mention of a number of times things changed. I believe there was a major change to how things were priced, as well as how Moves worked and were classified. Things have changed in the past, drastically so it seems, and I'm not really sure as to why some so aggressive defend against even the mention of it happening again, even on such a smaller scale.

Also, nothing is perfect. There is always room for improvement, and when you get to the point of seeing something as perfection, you know there's something wrong.

The systems in place my be quite the marvel, but that does not mean there are not or will not be ideas that come about through proper discussion that could improve upon it.

The aggression prevalent in some recent discussions has much to do with this i believe, as when one is so quickly shot down without a even a consideration, I'd imagine that many, including myself, would step to defend a point made that was not even considered. Especially in an environment such as this where the ability to think freely and creatively is so abundant among us as writers and citizen of the Omniverse.

But this is all I really have to say for now. I very highly doubt i am the only one who feels this way, and I hope that anyone who has anything to say on this topic feel free to voice their opinion. It will take more than just one voice to effect change, if the masses so desire it.

[Minato Namikaze]

Actually, I think I am understanding you. Quite accurately in fact. You are concerned about the attitudes towards recent discussions and are now voicing this worry publicly.

I am trying to explain the reasoning behind the replies to the Water Walking and Clone Debacle discussions. If you can't see this, then I have nothing else to add to this discussion.

I will be stepping out of it now, I have said enough.

[Ganondorf]

Usually I'd stay out of this, as I'm no longer staff. I kinda feel like I should explain things, as a member who has been on both sides of the fence.

Here's the thing, being a member of staff is a stressful job. They don't get paid and the workload drove me to quit. It's just something these folks do to make things better. This brings me to two points. One, don't assume staff are blowing you off when they say no. Especially if they say no multiple times. From firsthand experience, I can tell you that EVERY suggestion brought up by the members is taken into consideration. After all, these guys and gals write here too. If you have a good idea, they'll back you in a heartbeat.

Two, tone and delivery does wonders to help get the staff to see your point of view. I understand that we can get...zealous in our efforts to get something turned in our favor. Sometimes tempers will flare or you'll get irritated. It happens to the most patient of us. In those instances, it's better to take a step back, calm down, and come back with a logical and cohesive argument instead of ranting and raving. Not saying anyone has done this, but it's important to note that being emotional only weakens your argument.

As for the staff, just never forget where you came from. Remember how it felt when a staff member shut you down, or someone else down. Keep your cool. And use these three steps: 1: give answer. 2: give answer more adamantly and suggest member takes time to read what you said and sleep on it before posting a response. 3: Final response before locking thread. If the member hasn't given any NEW reasons why their position should be considered in that time, and won't let it go, refer to higher or lock the thread. And, over all that, be the kind, patient, respectful person I know you are.

:ganon:

[Monkey D. Luffy]

Ganon for Prez 2016. :wotwot:

Mr. Dorf is correct on all points. It's also important to note that staff members too have suggested ideas and concepts that were ultimately shot down. There have even been arguments caused amongst staff mates due to disagreements on such matters. We are not exempt from facing these same issues.

It's vital that folks do not take it personal when an idea of theirs is disregarded or disapproved. Some ideas just don't mesh well with the site, it doesn't mean you are incapable of devising great concepts. If you're adamant about it, go back to the drawing board, otherwise move on.

The staff is under a lot of pressure, and believe you me, members can be pricks. Unappreciative, unreasonable, spoiled, self-entitled, pretentious pricks. Staff respond to aggression with aggression, and vice-versa. Only difference is, unlike certain hot-tempered players, our staff actually does typically attempt a diplomatic, professional approach initially. Unfortunately, that is often times countered with anger and resent by individuals, simply for not getting their way. That being said, we staff mates are still human, and are not immune to being overtaken by emotion. So long as they recognize their flaws and rectify their misgivings, all should be well.

Lastly, you may disagree with the rules, you may even contest them with valid points, but you may not disobey them while you remain here in the Omniverse. If any player doesn't like that, they do not have to continue writing here in this otherwise cohesive community.

[Schwi Dola]

Well, in Water Walking the question had finished. When it was stopped there wasn't anything more to say, at least not by me. That it was was locked prevents future discussion on the topic.

I take issue with

Despite Desco being told by 3 Angels, 1 Cherub and 1 Sprite

Which is the attitude that you are talking about Dreamer?

Personally, and you all know this already, I don't care if it was Omni, Proto, and Guu I was talking with. Replace those five with 3 Admins. Rank means nothing in a free and open discussion.

I take issue with it being seen as a challenge of authority where there is none. I made it very clear that this was a minor topic. I think they should take a step back. Its great to talk, and by no means did anyone need to add replies if they felt the conversation had already finished.

[Minato Namikaze]

Well, in Water Walking the question had finished. When it was stopped there wasn't anything more to say, at least not by me. That it was was locked prevents future discussion on the topic.

I take issue with

Despite Desco being told by 3 Angels, 1 Cherub and 1 Sprite

Which is the attitude that you are talking about Dreamer?

Personally, and you all know this already, I don't care if it was Omni, Proto, and Guu I was talking with. Replace those five with 3 Admins. Rank means nothing in a free and open discussion.

I take issue with it being seen as a challenge of authority where there is none. I made it very clear that this was a minor topic. I think they should take a step back. Its great to talk, and by no means did anyone need to add replies if they felt the conversation had already finished.

I would like to point out that you posted the thread in the help desk originally, as a question, when myself, and several other angels gave you a ruling on it, you decided to respond and continue to argue about it, when it should have been finished.

The help desk is a place for questions (which your thread was, to begin with), your question was answered with a ruling, and then you decided to continue the thread on with reasons why you think it shouldn't be a paid move.In all honesty, it seemed like you were challenging a ruling, even if you meant it to be discussion.

I have noticed that you tend to discuss things in a way that seem like you're challenging other people rather than looking at a situation with an open mind. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but I am saying it happens, and it most certainly happened in the Water Walking thread. My attitude was in response to this, as I take a lot of time thinking things over when it comes to providing rulings on this site. I confer with a lot of other staff members as they all have different vies and different experiences. So when you began to argue back to us, after being provided a ruling (to your original question) I did take it as you trying to challenge. I'm sorry if that caused any problems with you.

Not trying to start an argument here, just pointing out what happened.

I would like to point out that the help desk is not for discussions. It is for questions and answers. If anyone wants to discuss something, then it should be posted in the discussions forum (Like this thread was).

[Schwi Dola]

That it was finished, a matter of opinion.

That it was in Help Desk, yes it was in the wrong forum. The Help Desk seems like the place to have discussions on mechanics where this forum is about IC discussion. I was misinformed, and that was resolved by moving the topic.

When you give me an answer and I respond to it and it continues, that 'is' a discussion. I found the answer that was starting to be given to me repeatedly at the end of water walking to be unrealistic. That it would never work that way In Character even if that is how it works mechanically. I pointed out a realistic solution, you guys were stubborn to stay on this point and then I had nothing more to try and show you my point.

While I may not be satisfied and want to discuss that further, by no means did you need to continue to respond. It isn't a challenge to authority to not agree with it.


EDIT: Minato takes issue with this whole post, so if I might add. The challenge to authority was not intended but I understand how it might have taken that way by being in the help desk (despite the repeated attempts to deter that. 3 times, I even talked about just that in a post). I thought that was also resolved by it getting moved to the Discussion forum where it should have properly been. Its how the topic didn't change at all in that regard once it being in the Help Desk was resolved and how that applies. The attitude did not change.

[Magus]

EDIT: Nevermind.

[The Dreamer]

I would just like the state that, so far, the discussion on the Underverse and the accompanying quest-line is being handled in the manner i'd hope all conversations about game mechanics and the possibility of change would be held.