Time Manipulation Discussion

[Jim Raynor]

I like the idea of Time Manipulation a lot, but I think there is something wrong with it. For all it can do, most of it could be done cheaper with other proficiencies/powers or moves, and the advantage that it gives (albeit quite a good advantage, if used in certain ways) is either gimped because of fairness or weak to the point of asking the question 'why bother?'

Here a few ideas I've thought up that TM could be used in, and why other options are better:

Speed up time - for yourself, this could be used to increase your speed/attack speed/dodging ability for a limited time. However, that to me sounds like artificially boosting your stats (SPD, obv), and something similar (not the same) can be done with Burst Movement, which is 1000 OM cheaper, and doesn't require a Move.

For a foe, you might do this to throw them off guard; temporarily increasing their speed may throw off their judgement and make them miss/crash/etc. Again though, I feel a similar effect can be achieved with Burst Movement, or perhaps a mental Move that makes them stumble, which would require Telepathy; 300 OM cheaper (though it would require a Move too).

Slow down time - I could see this being used to slow an incoming projectile to give the user time to dodge, but a defensive Move could provide a similar effect, and Area Shield Prof is only 400 OM. High SPD/TEC and again, Burst Movement could substitute here. This could be fun for non-combat reasons (stopping a bomb/person/fragile item from hitting the ground) but that's a big chunk of OM for not much utility.

Again, you could apply the slowing effect to your foe, but similar issues arise as speeding them up (namely the TK option).

Freeze time - one of the more useful traits, but of course it's very OP. Stopping someone from doing anything for a period of time is quite strong, and so such a move should be expensive (usually a Super Move). But I could argue that another SM could be used to paralyse/bind/put to sleep an opponent, and that would require Debuff Prof (800 OM less).

Reverse time - a cool concept; I thought you could make a Defensive Super Move where you take the damage and then reverse time back to when you weren't injured, thereby nullifying the effect. Again, this system is overpriced when considering Area Shield + SM cost is still better, and maybe falls into the Regen/Healing side of Powers.

All of this on top of that TM is generally time consuming and effort intensive, even at its base strength. Using anything I've described above would, I would assume, take more effort and time to prepare.

I'm not asking for Time Manipulation to be made cheaper or stronger; I think finding a balance between its strengths and costs is important. But at the moment, as a writer who would like to use this power, I see absolutely no reason outside of flavour for me to get it. The combat applications are interesting and fun, but generally the effect is weaker, more effort is required and the OM cost is generally worse than a similarly designed Move using other Powers/Profs.

I'd love to hear what other people think. Do you agree? Am I looking at it too narrowly? Is there something I didn't think of?

[The Dreamer]

I don't really have to add to the discussion outside of that I completely and totally agree with Ditto on all points, and feel that the Staffers who have a say in combat balance (I assume Omni for the most part) should take a look at rebalancing Time Manip and revamping it's uses, for as Ditto said, it's not really a bonus outside of flavor and style.

Maybe taking a look at it's uses in media could allow for a varied level of control over Time, like how some other powerful powers have different levels. For example, there is often a vast difference in the power level of the user itself when it comes to their ability to manipulate time, ranging from slightly manipulating their perception of time, to being able to travel through it, to altering time itself.

The power levels seem to go like this: (Notice: There's a spoiler for the show The tommorrow People in this, if you happen to be watching it.)
Altering your perception of time
---------- another's perception of time (Ex: Sawyer's Slowing Magic from Fairy Tail)
Altering the affect of time on yourself
-------------------------------- on other things or people (Ex: Orihime's Healing Power from Bleach)
Altering time in the universe (Ex: Stephen's Time Reversing Powers in The Tommorrow People at the end of Season 1)
Traveling through time itself

So, my point is that there is varying degree's of Time Manip, and not every character has the power to manipulate all aspects, but when they do it's usually because they're an extremely powerful as an individual. Maybe we should afford this same aspect when it comes out the Omniverse's interpretation of Time Manipulation.

Edit:---------------

And further more, since Time Manipulation itself is the breaking of the rules of the world as we know them, maybe this should be carried into the thought process as well when considering the new Time Manip, if there is one. As in, maybe allowing one to move faster than 2x their normal speed when used in conjunction with their Burst Movement and/or Super Speed, or allowing the use of a move to block a move of one higher tier (Normal vs Teir 1 Supr, Tier 1 vs Tier 2 etc.) if they were to combine a defensive maneuver with a high enough tier of Time Manipulation, for example.

[Kopaka]

I always interpreted Time Manipulation as more of an RP power than any sort of profound Omni-Mechanics power. Yes, you can accomplish a lot of Time Control effects with other powers and proficiencies, but its abilities to change story lines and solve problems outside of combat is immensely powerful.

Yes, it is very, very expensive, and I don't have a problem with that. I think the OM is to serve as a disincentive towards people who might otherwise just buy the power for kicks and go crazy with it. A good example of why this is valid is how moves are priced: Their cost isn't dependent on how powerful they are, it's dependent on how many different ways they can be applied.

That said, I can see the question; why bother having Time Manipulation as a mechanical power at all? Why can't it just be fluffed if it's more useful outside of combat than in?

From my perspective, all powers are more useful outside of combat than they are inside of a fight. Sure, someone with flight have an awesome fly-by strafing attack, but chances are, %90 of the time, they are going to be using it to solve problems outside of combat. Nealaphh has never been in an officially judged fight once, and yet I purchased all the requirements for Advanced Telekinesis without a second thought. Why? Because despite the meticulously balanced combat mechanics of the Omniverse, it's still a forum RPG. It isn't even necessary to have a fight judged if both players agree on the outcome and flow of the battle.

All this being said, using Time Manipulation to its fullest extent takes a lot of creativity and focused strategizing. I'm personally a science nut, so the ability to simply accelerate or slow the flow of time in a given area/object, and all the physical implications that come with that, has much more meaning to me. Context is important in the Omniverse.

</end god-rant>

[Gildarts]

This topic is awesome because I bought TM for Caira and haven't gotten a chance to apply it yet. And while I do view it as a mainly RP fodder, I plan to use it in conjunction with some moves in the future.

As for other things touched on, Em brings up some good points. And so does Nealaphh (Ko). I do agree it will take some time to fully hone and execute. But I also think it does have its own purpose. While at this time I prefer not to touch on it extensively, I agree with some of the interpretations, theories, and context it is brought to above.

[The Dreamer]

(Just looking to keep this thread up because I feel it's something that would do the community good.)

[Omni]

Excellent points all round. I guess if I were to purchase time manipulation, I would be doing things like using it to give myself time to plan by stopping time mentally, creative debuffs like ageing someone temporarily, causing things to break down. Altering the relative flow of time in an area could be considered a debuff or a self-buff in a way, but I would allow it (and that's actually my main thought for the power).

Given that a lot of these things can be done with other proficiencies (the debuff is purely flavour), it probably is overpriced. It's one of those powers that you can plainly see hasn't had a revamp unlike many of the others which are now very clear in their descriptions what they can do without moves. I will say that the balancing is individual for moves, so I wouldn't necessarily say the effect is weaker and more effort is required than any other move for a fair effect. It's just that the moves made with time manipulation tend to be overpowered by their very nature so they need to have strong downsides to balance them.

As Nealapph said, there is a certain prestige associated with the power for fodder purposes that I do think justifies a bit of the price. Simply from the reality-warping aspect it's not a power I would want everyone to have.

That said ... I could definitely knock 'er down to 1200 or so. My mind is saying 800-1200.

Just as a general aside, I always appreciate when people put their criticisms in an open, constructive and thoughtful manner. Good thread! :-)

[The Dreamer]

Awesome. Glad to hear it. Do you think that in time, some of the things I suggested could be considered as well maybe? I mean Im sure you considered them, but I think some changes could be made with some brainstorming and rebalancing that could do justice to examples that I had given.

But overall, change is good.

[Omni]

I think most of what you said in your final paragraph I would be against implementing. Blocking higher tier super moves and such.

[The Dreamer]

Very well then.

[Jim Raynor]

Thanks for the insight Omni. Seems you see it more as a buff/debuff power, whereas I was more interested in its combat applications. I appreciate the clarification on the effort/time when using a move. As it stands, I don't think I would use it, mostly because I don't think it suits Link's skillset, but I'm glad I raised it.