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+--- Thread: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) (/showthread.php?tid=7206)
Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Takanomiya Hijiri - 01-25-2018
I was gonna post this in Quick Questions originally, but I don't wanna get told off for going off topic... though it is technically in response to a Warren's question, but... eh. Don't wanna risk it.
Sooo... a little while ago I saw Jade post this in response to a move of Warren's:
Jade Harley Wrote:Mjolnir: This would require Mimic and that your character has witnessed Thor's hammer being used in-person.
But here's the thing, the Power description doesn't actually say that you need Mimic to buy someone's moves with OM, only that you have to buy them with OM if you want to use them after an hour has passed since they were copied (or you could copy them again, I guess, if the person that has them is still nearby).
On top of that, here's a quote from the Rules:
Quote:Summoning and Extraction In Detail
Summoning and extraction are both processes that seem alien when explained out loud, and yet are somehow instinctively understood when it comes time to do them. To summon something, a Prime simply visualises what it is they need and focuses on the Omnilium within themselves. This requires the summoner to sit or stand still for the period of time required (see the below section for more detail). If they do not have sufficient Omnilium, a kind of jarring feedback occurs - they know instinctively how much is needed. When summoning, the Omnilium emerges from the Prime in a kind of rainbow bubble, flashing through colours until it fades to reveal the desired item. It is difficult to summon anything discreetly.
In addition to summoning something from scratch, summoning can be used as a process to summon additional power or improve equipment. In this case, the rainbow bubble forms a kind of coccoon around the individual or piece of equipment being improved. Extraction is a similar process requiring uninterrupted concentration and time depending on the amount of omnilium being extracted, except that the bubble of Omnilium emerges from the item being extracted, which gradually becomes dessicated before vanishing entirely. Some sadistic Primes choose to kill their enemies using this method, even though killing a Prime conventionally produces exactly the same end result of Omnilium.
Important part in bold.
It clearly states that all you need to do is focus on what you want... you don't need to understand how it works; if you did, most characters would be unable to summon Dataverse Devices, for example.
If you've seen someone's gun or sword up close then there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't just visualise that in your head and create a perfect replica.
For other moves this may be more complicated, as these things may have some drawbacks that may not be immediately apparent when watching someone use it (e.g. cooldown times)... so in that case you could maybe argue that Insight would be required, in order to understand something well enough to copy it (though honestly, since your character doesn't need to understand how their car works in order to summon a perfect replica of it in the OV that functions exactly as it should, I'd still say that's debatable).
So... anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Am I totally wrong here? And if so, why?
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - The Humble Sage - 01-25-2018
mimic applies to more than just weapon moves though. it could allow you to copy something that cannot be physically represented, such as shooting lasers from your eyes, or a variety of similar effects.
with regards to the weapons themselves, it would come down to a matter of omniphysics, I would say. Differing amounts of OM give different results, otherwise every prime should logically have the same "best" load of equipment
does that makes sense? I can try and explain further if something is still unclear.
edit: ALSO the three minute summoning time for a weapon means that doing so in combat would be a no-no.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Serraph Quarrere - 01-25-2018
Well yes and no. How do I put this....
Prime A: uses a move that requires say Super Jump.
Prime B: Mimics that move and can use it for up to an hour regardless of whether or not he has that requirement.
Its true you can do such a thing to obtain something you saw, but buying a move during lets say a fight or event to use in that event or fight is prohibited (I think). Mimic allows the prime to copy what he saw without an OM cost unless they want it permenantly (And have the requirements to take it as a permanant move) of course.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Amaterasu - 01-25-2018
(not a staffer, so don't take my response as infalliably correct)
In short, Mimic is the power that allows you to copy people's moves on the fly, even in the midst of combat, without either summoning a weapon first (would not really be efficient to sit down for 5+ minutes in the midst of a fight), or learning the move or whatever. And you can do so for up to one hour after you see someone use that move.
Summoning new items with Omnilium is creating something from your head (your character's, ICly). To create a perfect replica of someone else's move you must have witnessed them use it and understand its inner workings, whether through Insight, because they explained it to you or because you spent a lot of time closely observing. And while your character can fantasize together extra aspects to the new move they're creating, there's limits beyond which you're just meta-gaming.
To take a practical example, disregarding Insight, Telepathy etc.: character A uses a rifle that has automatic (hold the trigger for constant firing) and semi-auto (pull the trigger once for one shot) modes. Character B witnesses A using the semi-auto mode, they will be able to use Mimic to create a rifle that can fire ONLY semi-auto, because that's what he's seen. He didn't see A using the automatic mode.
Later, Character B wants to create a permanent replica, it could be argued that they must know that character A's rifle can also use auto-fire because that's normal for modern-day rifles or something. But it would be overstepping the limits to say that just by seeing the rifle Character B is also aware that A can turn the rifle into a hammer or something similarly fancy, which he's never shown. It's entirely based on what Character B knows and wishes for.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Ebonywood Hellscythe - 01-25-2018
I think the main issue was this line of Warren's move:
Quote:Warren forms a digital replica of Thor's hammer in his right hand.
Which would be hard to do without actually seeing Thor's hammer, and mimicking it or having him explain it to you.
It would be like Dane (low magic fantasy setting) summoning a lightsaber after hearing about it from a stormtrooper or something - or maybe seeing a picture. He could try to summon one, but it'd probably just be a hot glowy-sword and not an actual lightsaber. The same thing applies here. Warren can make a strong electric hammer move, but without mimic or having Thor teach him or something like that - it won't be Thor's hammer move - or a replica of it. It will just be something that likely does the same thing, and is highly inspired by it, but not the actual same weapon.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Takanomiya Hijiri - 01-26-2018
First off, thanks for the responses everyone. ^_^
I would've replied sooner, but, y'know, I had work today...
(01-25-2018, 03:08 PM)The Humble Sage Wrote: mimic applies to more than just weapon moves though. it could allow you to copy something that cannot be physically represented, such as shooting lasers from your eyes, or a variety of similar effects.
That's what I meant by the whole "For other moves this may be more complicated, as these things may have some drawbacks that may not be immediately apparent" bit; if your character has seen a move used even just once then they can form a mental image of you it should work... but that image may not be correct, unless they had Insight... or had heard the specifics described in detail.
In the example you gave, for instance, shooting lasers from your eyes could potentially have a drawback that blinds you whilst the move is active ('cos all you can see is bright red light), but without paying close attention, this may not be obvious... but it could be argued that the character trying to copy the move was paying close enough attention if they were focusing on watching the laser-eyed person whilst they used the move... in which case it could be argued that neither Insight nor Mimic would not be needed in order to buy a permanent copy.
That's what I was meaning by it being "debatable".
(01-25-2018, 03:08 PM)The Humble Sage Wrote: edit: ALSO the three minute summoning time for a weapon means that doing so in combat would be a no-no.
Oh yeah, of course. I was only meaning with regards to purchasing moves permanently, I know that Mimic is the only way to copy stuff mid-fight.
(01-25-2018, 03:09 PM)Serraph Quarrere Wrote: Mimic allows the prime to copy what he saw without an OM cost unless they want it permenantly (And have the requirements to take it as a permanent move) of course.
Yeah, I know. My point was only that there's no reason buying a permanent copy of someone else's move should require Mimic; I'm well aware that Mimic is a very useful and versatile power.
(01-25-2018, 03:22 PM)Amaterasu Wrote: Summoning new items with Omnilium is creating something from your head (your character's, ICly). To create a perfect replica of someone else's move you must have witnessed them use it and understand its inner workings, whether through Insight, because they explained it to you or because you spent a lot of time closely observing. And while your character can fantasize together extra aspects to the new move they're creating, there's limits beyond which you're just meta-gaming.
Yeah, I get what you're saying... though based on the move they're copying, 'a lot' of time closely observing may be a bit of an overstatement. A 300 OM move shouldn't be too hard to imitate, I'd imagine, since they're usually pretty basic (Hijiri's katana, for example, is literally just an average katana, one glance is about all it'd take to get a clear enough picture in your head to copy it).
(01-25-2018, 03:22 PM)Amaterasu Wrote: To take a practical example, disregarding Insight, Telepathy etc.: character A uses a rifle that has automatic (hold the trigger for constant firing) and semi-auto (pull the trigger once for one shot) modes. Character B witnesses A using the semi-auto mode, they will be able to use Mimic to create a rifle that can fire ONLY semi-auto, because that's what he's seen. He didn't see A using the automatic mode.
Later, Character B wants to create a permanent replica, it could be argued that they must know that character A's rifle can also use auto-fire because that's normal for modern-day rifles or something. But it would be overstepping the limits to say that just by seeing the rifle Character B is also aware that A can turn the rifle into a hammer or something similarly fancy, which he's never shown. It's entirely based on what Character B knows and wishes for.
Technically Character B doesn't need to know that at all, they could just think: 'yeah, Character A's rifle is cool and all, but it'd be better if it could somehow change into a melee weapon as well...'
Buuuuut I can see what you mean, if they actually did that and gave their replica the exact same extra mode as something that the other character had that they couldn't have known about then it'd seem like really bad writing.
(01-25-2018, 04:00 PM)Ebonywood Hellscythe Wrote: I think the main issue was this line of Warren's move:
Quote:Warren forms a digital replica of Thor's hammer in his right hand.
Which would be hard to do without actually seeing Thor's hammer, and mimicking it or having him explain it to you.
It would be like Dane (low magic fantasy setting) summoning a lightsaber after hearing about it from a stormtrooper or something - or maybe seeing a picture. He could try to summon one, but it'd probably just be a hot glowy-sword and not an actual lightsaber. The same thing applies here. Warren can make a strong electric hammer move, but without mimic or having Thor teach him or something like that - it won't be Thor's hammer move - or a replica of it. It will just be something that likely does the same thing, and is highly inspired by it, but not the actual same weapon.
I'd saaaaay it should be pretty easy for Dane to make a lightsaber if someone showed him a picture of one and told him how it functioned; it'd be no different than someone summoning a car without knowing how an internal combustion engine operated. That was the point of the quote I mentioned in the first post; if you can visualise something, you can make it. The rules are pretty clear that characters don't need to understand things in order to make them.
With regards to Warren's move; if he had seen a picture of Thor's hammer and knew what it could do (I don't think he's ever met Thor in the OV, so I'm gonna assume that his character has read about him on the Dataverse or whatever) then there's no reason he couldn't make an identical copy.
See, Mimic, the Power, cannot work based on videos and pictures, but nowhere does it say that normal summoning functions that way... the only limitations are imagination and Omnilium (IC, obviously... OOC there are rules to stop people getting OP moves).
-----------------------------
So, to recap, my point is basically just that it shouldn't cost an extra 2800 OM to buy a move that is identical to someone else's than it would to buy a functionally identical move with a slightly altered name and description.
In the example that Ebony gave, Warren was able to get his hammer move approved simply by altering the name and removing all mention of Thor from the description. That's all it took, the actual move didn't need changed at all.... and yet if he had insisted on keeping Thor's name in there, he would have had to buy Mimic in order to get it...
For some reason...
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - The Humble Sage - 01-26-2018
I think what this all comes down to is how "meta" you want your characters knowledge of the move system to be. It makes sense that someone who wants a weapon someone else has could make their own version. It makes less sense for Skeletor to see Sasuke use his Sharingan in a fight and decide that he will figure out exactly how to do that as well. Sure You could have him study Sasuke during a fight, (or have him look him up on the ultra-convenient Dataverse, because who needs to put in work to learn someone else's character-defining moves?)
TECHNICALLY, because of the way Omnilium works, and how it can be manipulated by a prime, copying moves from other people's repitore shouldn't need mimic. This has an analogy in several of our sources too. Goku acquires several moves from everyone else over the course of DBZ, but I don't think anyone would claim that Goku has the mimic ability. The difference really comes down to how fast a character can adapt to a new fighting style, and how much they are trying to become an amalgam of what they've seen vs. learning techiniques from their allies/enemies that they have interacted with and learned from. (as some examples, Strazio and Gamzee have been running around as a duo of woe for the better part of a year now, and Tearen had his whole going away party where he had a bunch of people copy his moves.) What becomes sticky is when you view the move acquisition as a player instead of as a character. For Skeletor to think that he can use Sharingan despite having no eyes is technically possible, and therefore allowable under the definition of the rules, but the leaps of reasoning that would be required to reach the point where he creates that move for himself using Omnilium is leaning heavily on this world as a game and far less about it being a real story.
So BY THE TECHINCAL DEFINITION of the rules, I agree with you. but from the perspective of a role-player and an author, I don't know that I can concur with that line of thought.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Alex - 01-26-2018
Mimic isn't a prereq for buying any kind of Move. It's mostly for the fun convenience of trolling people with their own Moves and crap during combat.
Obviously, if you want your fantasy character to buy a light saber move, you should probably go through the effort of having it make sense but there are no restrictions to what Moves you can't buy if you have the prerequisites. People seem to always want to have this conversation every 6-8 months. I mean, I think all my characters have Moves that I've just straight stolen from people for one reason or another. Just do what makes sense.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Handsome Jack - 01-26-2018
I stole (with some minor rewrites) Alex's Ki Blast when I was Cell. And his Tail from Freeza.
But yeah. As long as you can make it make sense, it's anything goes.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Alex - 01-26-2018
Let's make sure we bookmark these posts for 6 months from now, Jeff.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Takanomiya Hijiri - 01-26-2018
(01-26-2018, 05:03 PM)The Humble Sage Wrote: For Skeletor to think that he can use Sharingan despite having no eyes is technically possible, and therefore allowable under the definition of the rules, but the leaps of reasoning that would be required to reach the point where he creates that move for himself using Omnilium is leaning heavily on this world as a game and far less about it being a real story.
I can't exactly deny that, since I know next to nothing about Skeletor, so sure, in your case, yeah, maybe it would be extremely out of character for him to see someone else do something awesome and immediately think 'oh shit, I gotta learn that stuff myself!'. Just remember, though, that that doesn't necessarily apply equally to all our characters.
Also, I fail to see how following the laws of (omni)physics qualifies as "leaning heavily on this world as a game". Omni tells Primes that they can make anything they desire with Omnilium in the intro. It doesn't seem to me like it'd require any great leap of ingenuity to look at someone's cool weapon/ability and think 'let's test out this Omnilium stuff that Omni gave me, and which he clearly stated could summon anything'.
But yeah, I get what you're saying. Just make sure a character has a proper reason for what they're doing before they do it. ^_^
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - James Knight - 01-27-2018
I've scrapped the DigiMjonir move. Truthfully his only real use for the move would be as a lead in to a move that I plan on him getting later.
RE: Mimic Is Not Needed (If You're Spending OM) - Trixie - 01-28-2018
(01-26-2018, 07:20 PM)Alex Wrote: Mimic isn't a prereq for buying any kind of Move. It's mostly for the fun convenience of trolling people with their own Moves and crap during combat.
Obviously, if you want your fantasy character to buy a light saber move, you should probably go through the effort of having it make sense but there are no restrictions to what Moves you can't buy if you have the prerequisites. People seem to always want to have this conversation every 6-8 months. I mean, I think all my characters have Moves that I've just straight stolen from people for one reason or another. Just do what makes sense.
Can confirm. Alex purchased the rifle move I have for 17 when he joined the Special Forces.