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+--- Thread: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC (/showthread.php?tid=1400)
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Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Cirno - 02-16-2018
Participants: Cirno vs. Hecate (Yandere lover and Warren will be on the side lines)
Time: 72 hours
Random events: none
Setting: Fort Zimmer rothchild
Extra rules: none
Word limit: 800 word count
Rounds: 3 (no intro post's)
BTW Cirno will be in her alternate form for the start of the fight and most likely the rest of the fight.
We also need a judge for the fight so anyone interested?
Also hecate you want to post first?
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Viola - 02-16-2018
Might wanna add that Warren is on the side as well.
Warren can intervene if/when he wishes, since he was there when it started.
Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX can only intervene properly if all the players involved say he can (since he's a secondary/prime NPC so I don't have any OOC claim to join the fight).
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Hecate Rothchild - 02-16-2018
due to the fact i have no experience in posting for pvp combat in this layout I will defer first post to you unless you prefer i go first
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Reece - 02-18-2018
I'll judge if ya want.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Dane Regan - 02-18-2018
Me and Warren agreed to fight at the same time, in a separate 1v1. (He can post here to confirm)
I've also OOC agreed not to banish him (not that I ever planned to).
Same rules as Cirno and Hecate so:
Quote:Time: 72 hours
Random events: none
Setting: Fort Zimmer Rothchild
Extra rules: none
Word limit: 800 word count
Rounds: 3 (no intro posts)
My time starts now, since we agreed for me to post first.
For convenience, we'll use the same thread if it's okay with you guys.
@Reece: Would you be okay with judging our fight as well?
Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX's (provisional) roster is (nerfed down from level 6 to roughly the same total OM as Warren):
[spoiler]
Name: Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX
Spent OM: 11100
Consumed OM: 300
Proficiencies (1000): Physical Strength (1000)
Powers (1000/8000): Suppression (1000)
Moves (300): Ōdachi (300)
Super Moves (0):
Transformations (0):
Assists (0):
Items: Mobile Dataverse Device (100), Communicator (200)
Artefacts:
Bases: Parents' Basement (Coruscant, T3)
Unlocks (8500): Stat Upgrade III (7000), Base (1000), VR Station (500)
Base stats:
ATK: 3
DEF: 2
SPD: 3
TEC: 5
Ōdachi (300) Requires: Physical Strength
A 68 inch (172cm) long Japanese sword. The blade is 50 inches (127cm) long, and slightly curved (see the picture above). Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX uses this more for individual strong swift attacks than faster flurries of blows. Is he is ever found without it, he can simply draw it out of thin air from an invisible sheath held in his hand. This requires 2 of seconds of light focus where he can move and act as usual, but can't use other moves. This isn't interrupted if he takes damage unless it's a large amount (like a super attack). After drawing his sword like this, he can't do it again for an hour.[/spoiler]
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Reece - 02-18-2018
Yeah, no problem. If the others are okay with me as the judge I'd be glad to.
EDIT: Oh, by the way, though; are you and Warren wanting to give Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX some sort of disadvantage for being an NPC? Because with those Stats (the 7 TEC, specifically) he'd have a huge advantage over everyone else...
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - James Knight - 02-18-2018
I will accept these terms now no handicap needed.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Dane Regan - 02-18-2018
@Reece: Only just saw your edit. We must have both edited at around the same time. I removed two stat increases and brought him down to 5 TEC (so Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX and Warren have around the same OM).
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Reece - 02-18-2018
Okay, neat. So it should be a pretty even fight then.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Cirno - 02-22-2018
My side of the Hecate vs. Cirno fight is done
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Hecate Rothchild - 02-22-2018
my side of the fight is done as well
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Reece - 02-23-2018
Great!
I've started writing up a judgement thing, but I don't have time to complete it right now, unfortunately (because work).
I should hopefully be able to get that finished for you later today.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Reece - 02-23-2018
Okay, I'm gonna base this on the way Vision judged the Avengers vs Centurion fight, 'cos the damage report seems like a fun thing to write... >.>
DAMAGE REPORT
[spoiler]
Before we begin, here is the reference from the Rules for a rough guide as to how much each point of damage is worth:
Quote:Minor Injury (1-2 damage points) A minor injury is something like a burn, cut or bruise.
Moderate Injury (3-4 damage points) A moderate injury is something like a deep cut, a burn, or an open wound on the arms, legs or torso.
Serious Injury (5-6 damage points) A serious injury is something like crushed digits, severe burns, an eye or face injury, or even a bone fracture.
Major Injury (7+ damage points) A major injury is something like a deep stab, a broken arm, a face wound, or any other extreme injury.
Cirno Post 1
Cirno damage taken: 8
• 1 point from a sword scratch.
(4 DEF is as durable as a suit of armour and Hecate only has 2 ATK, meaning she doesn't surpass normal human limitations, so a scratch isn't gonna mean much)
• 2 points from letting Hecate hit her a few times to show off.
• 3 points from getting stabbed in the side.
(and it's only that low because I'm being generous and assuming it's a very shallow stab wound)
• 2 points for a few more cuts on the back.
Hecate damage taken: 6
• 1 point from a kick in the gut.
• 4 points from getting thrown into a wall hard enough to break her ribs.
(normally I'd class that as at least a Serious Injury, but since I'm being lenient to Cirno, it only makes sense that Hecate get the same treatment)
Hecate Post 1
Cirno damage taken: 2
• 2 points from a flurry of small cuts.
Hecate damage taken: 9
• 3 points from 'Ice Sign: Icicle Fall'.
(2 base damage for a T1 Super Attack, +1 since Cirno's ATK is twice Hecate's DEF)
• 2 points for getting a hammer rammed into her gut.
(4 ATK is enough to break concrete with an normal move, by the way)
• 4 points for getting hit with a proper hammer swing.
Cirno Post 2
Cirno damage taken: 8
• 5 points for leaping into a storm of crossbow-bolt strength icicles to protect Daiyousei.
• 2 points from another few slashes.
Hecate damage taken: 6
• 3 points for 'surface damage' from some small icicles.
• 3 points for a punch in the jaw.
(a punch is a bit less powerful than a real move like the hammer)
Hecate Post 2
Cirno damage taken: 11
• 2 points from big surprise cut on the arm.
• 2 points from being stabbed in an open wound.
• 3 points from more stabbings in the chest.
• 4 points from getting a knife lodged in the shoulder.
Hecate damage taken: 13
• 3 from 'Ice Sign: Icicle Fall'.
• 4 from multiple punches, some of which hit broken ribs.
• 4 from getting hit with 'several' large lumps of ice.
• 1 point from being tackled to the ground.
• 1 point from being thrown away by Cirno.
(probably should be more than just 1, but I dunno how far she was actually thrown)
Cirno Post 3
Cirno damage taken: 5
• 2 points from a couple new wounds.
• 3 points form some more attacks...
(seriously, I don't even know how many hits you're taking any more)
Hecate damage taken: 14
• 4 points from getting hit by icicles 'too often for comfort'.
• 4 points from taking a headshot with an icicle.
• 3 points from a punch to the sternum.
• 3 points from a knee to the face.
Hecate Post 3
Cirno damage taken: 5
• 2 points for being stabbed again.
(in an unclear location)
• 3 points from fragments of ice with frightening speed.
Hecate damage taken: 3
• 3 points from 'Ice Sign: Icicle Fall'.
Total Damage:
Cirno; 39
Hecate; 51[/spoiler]
Notes[spoiler]
Note 1: I really dislike the rule that says Super Moves deal so little damage, because given how... un-dodged those were, I feel that Hecate ought to have taken a lot more than she did. Nevertheless, rules are rules.
Note 2: As you have probably realised by now, you are both dead.
Or should be, at least.
Injuries the likes of which you two were dealing to one another are not the sorts of things that can simply be shrugged off. Honestly, that's by far the biggest issue I have with your fight. Yeah, you both made some grammatical errors like forgetting capital letters or not using commas or not taking a new paragraph after speech...
But the thing that caught my attention the most was the misrepresentation of Stats. First of all, Cirno's ATK & DEF are both 4 in her Alt Form, meaning that she's tanky and hits hard as well... which sounds like it gives her an enormous advantage over Hecate... the thing is, Cirno has only 1 SPD, so with her Super Speed, Burst Movement & SPD 5, Hecate ought to have been able to run circles around her. The entire fight should have been Cirno growing more and more frustrated as she was unable to land a single move properly, then feeling really pleased with herself whenever she did land something.
Instead, Hecate just stood and took most of her attacks head on. Furthermore, I don't think either of you made it very clear how difficult it was for her to cut someone who is as durable “as though wearing armor all over” (that quote is taken from the Rules page on Stats).
That said, I can't really judge either of you on that, or on grammar, since you both did about the same in that regard... keep in mind, though, that not playing to your Stats will almost always cost you the fight if you do it against someone who represents theirs properly. What's more, successful attacks should be meaningful, so even if you do have high DEF, try to consider the implications of a hit before having it take place; being stabbed multiple times isn't something you can just forget about after a few seconds and keep fighting.
Oh, and you both probably would have done better if you had described your surroundings a bit more... and by a bit more, I mean a lot more. Between the two of you, I managed to gather that your location has at least one wall nearby and white cobbles on the ground... that's about it. Even if you don't make use of environmental weapons in your posts (which makes for an interesting read, by the way, and so is worth a try, even if they are technically weaker than actual moves), describing the scenery alone will earn you points.
Anyways, like I said, Ignoring the things that you both did about the same at...
I'd say it was a pretty close fight.
Cirno: Your posts were fast-paced and eventful, and in particular I really liked the part in the final round in which Cirno punched Hecate in the breastbone then knee'd her in the face; actions always seem more dramatic when you pay closer attention to them, which I would say made these blows sound more impactful than most of the stabbing with ice and swords that had been going on all fight. On top of that. Also, whilst your posts didn't quite reach the maximum word count, you managed to keep them at a fairly decent length all the way through.
Hecate: You include a lot of good descriptive terms in your posts, which allows the reader to more clearly visualise what was going on and get immersed in the story. On the negative side, your paragraphs are often bit too long, which makes it easy to get lost and breaks immersion. Try to cut them down a little, like Cirno and Dane have been doing. Also, whilst your first post was long enough and your second came close to the max, which was great... what happened at the end there? That last one was very short.[/spoiler]
And so, in summary:
[spoiler]
The Winner is Cirno!
It was a close one, but ultimately you were just at too large a disadvantage, Hecate; you really need some super moves or assists or power-ups to do well in PvP... or something else to give yourself an edge, at least. As it was, your 3 SP were unused, whilst Cirno's 3 SP reduced your health by 9 points... almost half of your Max HP (which is 20).
Of course, if you had been a significantly better writer than Cirno, it would have been possible to come back from that, but it was never going to be easy. Making your final post so short just sealed the deal, unfortunately.
Cirno, well done! You can now decide to slay or spare Hecate.
For reference, since you both took such an inordinately huge number of injuries during that fight, I'm putting the pair of you on 19 Damage (1 HP remaining), so I'd suggest not getting into any more fights until after you've had time to heal.[/spoiler]
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Hecate Rothchild - 02-23-2018
my last post length was due to the number of attacks Hecate sustained, she realistically couldn't go on.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Cirno - 02-23-2018
I'm sparing Hecate btw think its going to mess with Dark Hecate more. Also Warren I'm getting the Bounty right?
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Reece - 02-24-2018
(02-23-2018, 08:49 PM)Hecate Rothchild Wrote: my last post length was due to the number of attacks Hecate sustained, she realistically couldn't go on.
That doesn't mean you had to cut your post so short. I briefly mentioned above that you both could have done with describing the environment more, but that doesn't mean that that's the only thing you should be trying to detail. Writing about what your characters feels - both emotions and physical sensations - can not only lengthen your post but also make it sound better. Aside from that, you were both really vague with some of the injuries that your characters sustained; in that last post, for instance, you said that one sword cut Cirno whilst she dodged the other, but never actually stated where the sword landed, or how serious the wound was that it dealt.
How did Hecate feel when Cirno - battered, bloodied and with her grand total of 1 SPD - managed to find the reserves of strength to dodge quickly out of the way of a strike intended to finish her off?
What was Cirno doing whilst Hecate stumbled past her after missing? And what was she doing for the 10 seconds that Hecate charged her Shard Storm?
What was Hecate thinking as she came to the desperate realisation that her best hope for victory was to take a hostage and use her as leverage rather than continuing to fight head on?
How did her body feel? Was she trembling with exhaustion and clutching Daiyousei tightly to keep herself upright, or was she just out of breath a little but otherwise fine?
Even just based on the small amount you wrote and even assuming you actively wanted to avoid describing your characters' surroundings, there was still a lot of extra detail that could have been included to flesh out the story further.
This lack of detail is something that you both suffer from, though, so I wasn't actually penalising you for ignoring all that stuff, in theory... but your final post was barely over 1/3rd of the max word count whereas Cirno's was more than 3/4ths of it.
Just to clarify something here, in case my judgement wasn't clear enough on it; writing both characters well is what matters most. If your opponent writes your character (or theirs) taking lots of wounds that you think they should have been able to avoid because of high SPD or TEC, or that you think shouldn't have harmed them nearly as much because of high DEF, you can't just ignore the injuries, obviously, since that will surely lose you points... but that doesn't mean you need to do the same thing in your posts as they did. Portray both characters well and you'll have a much greater chance of winning than you would if you just wrote that your opponent took a huge number of injuries.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - James Knight - 02-24-2018
Provided you get Dark Hecate to stop going around, and killing people in the Tangled Green, or at the very least doing so far far away from Fort Zimmer-Rothchild, yes.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Reece - 02-25-2018
This time around I'm using Jeff's judgement of the Kopaka vs Eowyn fight as a base. Because where's the fun in sticking to the same template every time.
Warren Zimmer vs Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX
WARREN
[spoiler]
The Good
Your first and third posts both came very close to the max word count (though the second was a bit shorter) so good job on that.
You used some vivid imagery at times, especially in your first post:
Quote:Warren refused to give Yandere Lover the satisfaction of hearing him scream in pain despite it feeling like a million lances made out of lava had been inserted into his body. No, that was not an apt description for what this felt like. It was more like someone had distilled the sun into a liquid, and then injected it into his blood stream.These similes really bring the scene alive and lend a feeling of weight and impact to the injuries he received, as well as giving the reader a good impression of how much Warren must be struggling to avoid crying out in pain.
I also liked the way you made use of your greater number of moves and powers to gain an advantage over Yandere Lover, despite his higher base stats. (for example, using Master Acrobat to jump over his head or switching out your swords with your spear based on what would be the most helpful at any particular time) and took advantage of weak points like aiming for the back of his knees and his balls... it's good thinking, since fighting dirty is a nice way to even the odds in a pinch.
Finally, you did a nice job of explaining Warren's thoughts and feelings throughout the fight as well, and made it fairly clear that the strain of his wounds and fatigue were affecting him and how concerned and angered he was at the thought of being overpowered by a nerd like Yandere Lover. I really liked the "I'm not... DONE YET!" moment that Warren had. It demonstrated his resolve really well. Very dramatic.
The Bad
Repetition... lots of repetition. You don't need to say the same thing multiple times in a row in order to get your readers to remember it. For example:
Quote:The relentless assault by the Quarterback of Chaos continued, his every effort put forward to pummel the person into submission so that he could survive. Only one of them could survive this after all, and Warren intended on it being him. Warren was hell bent on surviving because it was the only thing he could do.Mentioning that he wanted to survive once would have been fine, but you've said essentially the same thing for three sentences in a row.
You didn't actually describe your surroundings at all I don't think, other than to mention that Hecate was fighting nearby. As much as I loved Warren's adaptability, with all those different moves of his, you could have taken advantage of your environment to fight more effectively, rather than simply rushing in each time; since Yandere Lover's ATK & TEC are both higher, that makes for a risky strategy. For example, using Master Acrobat to flip around from tree to tree would have allowed you to take advantage of his lack of ranged moves to safely shoot him from a distance as well as buy yourself time to charge your own moves...
And that was another notable issue with your posts: you didn't go into much detail at all as to how Warren was actually able to keep away from Yandere Lover long enough to charge his moves. This is a major one. If you're going to give your moves long charge times then you'll get to have more powerful moves because of it, but no matter how powerful they are, you won't be able to win fights if you aren't going to write them working the way they're supposed to (well, not unless your opponent does the same thing). For example:
Quote:As Yandere Lover came and swung that long sword of his, Warren moved to one side. This allowed him to dodge the strike, and then he switched weapons. The weapon he now wielded was his NFL-R, which he charged up as he dodged yet another slash, and then another from Yandere Lover. Once he had dodged the 3 slashes of that long sword, he fired the NFL-R at Yandere Lover, staggering him.Your NFL-R is described as taking 15 seconds to charge, which means that Yandere Lover must have only tried to slash him once every five seconds... this is very unrealistic. With a sword as big and heavy as a nodachi, he might be slowed down enough that he would only manage to swing once every two seconds... maybe... though with 3s in both ATK & SPD, I'd say he's probably still faster than that.
This might not be too clear if you're used to watching animes like DBZ, where people apparently consider it the height of rudeness not to stand still and let their opponent charge up one attack for 2-3 episodes, but in a more realistic situation, you can't afford to do that. In future, you should really try to spend more time writing Warren struggling to avoid getting killed whilst he charges a move.
Last but not least: you don't need to let your opponent decide whether your moves hit or not. I understand wanting to avoid being accused of god-modding, but combat in the OV is intended just to be read like a fight scene in a book; you don't need to wait for your opponent to agree that you are allowed to hit them before doing it.
To avoid god-modding, just portray Stats correctly (e.g. let your opponent block/dodge at least some attacks, especially if they have high TEC) and don't go around doing major damage like cutting off people's arms and legs (unless they've given you OOC permission beforehand, of course).[/spoiler]
YANDERE LOVER
[spoiler]
The Good
First off, congratulations on reaching the exact max word count in all three of your posts! Very impressive.
I thought you did a good job of characterisation in your first post. If there was anyone reading this who was just being introduced to Yandere Lover for the first time, they'd quickly and easily be able to grasp his personality, as it came across really well when he was watching Hecate and deciding to turn on Warren.
Next, I think your level of detail in describing some parts of the fight was excellent, most notably:
Quote:A flood of nanobots and lasers poured from the older prime's watch, instantly forming a patchy semi-crystalline purple football with odd wires and flashing lights. It gave off the appearance of being heavy, but to Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX's surprise, Warren dropped it, then kicked it. Hard.It really gives the impression of the Footbomb being something worth paying attention to when compared to all the other moves that aren't described this clearly, and so makes for a satisfying read when both fighters get blown off their feet by the force of its explosion a moment later.
The same goes for the NFL-R. When you wrote Warren using it on Yandere Lover, it really felt like a big deal; something that was successfully evening the odds against an otherwise stronger and more skilful fighter. Very good writing here.
You also mentioned the surroundings! With some detail! And at one point you even had Yandere Lover use a tree to help him stand, which I guess counts as using the environment to your advantage...! Sort of!
Finally, you made good use of tactics such as feinting and even using reflected sunlight to blind Warren. Not to mention, some things – such as tossing the nodachi up in the air then catching it again after having pulled Warren into the path of Hecate's attack – were just pretty cool.
The Bad
The thing that stuck out to me the most was that after your first post you seemed to have an awful lot going on in each post with very little in the way of dialogue or even Yandere Lover's thoughts on the situation.
First, the eventfulness. This is a lot like what I said to Cirno & Hecate, but you're cramming entirely too many things into one post... though in your case, the problem is exacerbated due to the lengthiness of each post. All these large numbers of injuries should be mounting up rapidly, and yet it seems instead that you're simply forgetting about them by the time you get to your next post.
And second, the stuff you're missing out to make way for all the eventfulness. Even in the first post, which was the best in this regard, you had him cut off his own dialogue in order to attack... which, admittedly, is a decent tactic... but it was a little disappointing considering Yandere Lover was originally just a Dataverse troll.
I had expected more witty banter from him, but instead it seems like as soon as the fight got underway a switch was flipped and his emotions vanished completely, leaving behind only a skilful but exceedingly boring swordsman. He occasionally had thoughts, but after the first post none of them seemed to carry any real emotion.
You also forgot what people were wearing halfway through the fight, which made some things sound a little odd. You referred to Yandere Lover's cloak billowing in the wind despite the fact that he wears an overcoat, not a cloak, and twice mentioned hitting Warren in the nose even though he was wearing a helmet, which neither of you mentioned being broken or removed at any point.
Finally, this is a minor point... in fact, I'm not even sure it counts as a complaint, really, but the way you described Warren's moves made them seem really interesting and having him use the little scuffle to buy time to charge the NFL-R was a fantastic idea; way to take advantage of the fact that the wording of that move doesn't actually say whether he can attack or not whilst it's charging!
The only problem is that it made me root for Warren instead of Yandere Lover... you made Warren seem cool and Yandere Lover seem bland. It's not really the best road to take if you want to claim victory.[/spoiler]
THE GRADING
[spoiler]
I'm going to be grading based on... uh... two factors... Jeff used five, but I don't really like the idea of level giving an innate advantage as you can already get that from the extra SP. So that one doesn't seem fair to me... also, it's pointless in this case anyway, since these two characters are the same level, so I won't be including the 'Level Advantage' one.
Also, you guys are 1v1ing, so there's no point in including the 'Teamwork' one.
And neither of you used SP, so there's no point in including the 'SP Spent' one...
Warren Zimmer
Technical Skill: 2 (1-5)
Enjoyability: 3 (1-5)
Total: 5
Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX
Technical Skill: 3.5 (1-5)
Enjoyability: 2 (1-5)
Total: 5.5
Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX Wins!
Dabony, you can decide to slay or spare Warren.
THE DAMAGE
In this sub-section I will make a rough estimate as to how much damage each character took during the fight... based on all the major injuries they took (counting up every individual thing like I did for Cirno & Hecate takes way too long... sorry fellas, you're not gonna get to see how badly overkilled you both ought to have been).
Warren Zimmer
His chest is really messed up, with at least two big holes in it from Hecate's icicles and a long, deep slash from the nodachi. He has another hole in his shoulder, is a little bruised and singed from being caught in his own Footbomb explosion, and has a broken nose (and probably cuts on his face, since his helmet must have been smashed at some point). Also, numerous shallow cuts all across his body. He is suffering from a lot of blood loss right now, and so is probably very woozy.
Damage Taken: 17
(One more Moderate Injury, such as a deep cut, will finish him off.)
Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX
He has taken a few shallow cuts in undefined areas, though not nearly as many as Warren, but has also been burned in three places by the Chaotic Quarter Spear Staff & NFL-R; one burn is below his ribs, the others are unspecified. He has a hole in his shoulder from having the spear thrown at him, is bruised and burned from the explosion and has a few other bruises from getting hit by the pole part of the spear.
He's also been knee'd in the nuts and then hit there at least once with the spear. As a result of this, he is in so much pain that he can barely walk. He may have won, but it wasn't pretty.
Damage Taken: 15
(Another Serious Injury would be needed to kill him... he – his balls, especially – may be in excruciating pain, but a lot of his wounds are cauterised or blunt trauma, so blood loss isn't affecting him as badly.)
[/spoiler]
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - James Knight - 02-25-2018
Fight was enjoyable, but I'll need to get better at writing them in the future. Now I suppose it's time to find a way to heal up Warren some, so that he doesn't die, because you know.
RE: Cirno vs. Hecate OOC - Dane Regan - 02-25-2018
I'll have a post out for you tomorrow or the day after - where Xx_Yandere_Lo♥er_xX will either kill Warren or spare him. Then (if you're still alive) go ahead and heal up. We'll see. I might wait on Cirno to see what she does first, actually (or, namely, how Hecate is doing). But they'll be something out Tuseday at the latest.