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+--- Thread: Rules Feedback (/showthread.php?tid=3266)
RE: Rules Feedback - Dane Regan - 03-08-2018
@Reece: Teleportation can be "improved" with moves - it's just the range that can't be. Charge time and things can be changed for different drawbacks and the like. But yeah, maybe there should be a list of things you can't change. The SP to Health ratio for regen and life burn is one example. The max height of growth I'd assume is another. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
@Schwi: And 80m is plenty for your purposes. You're not going to get a long range teleport to improve your escape chances. And unless someone is able to follow you through the portal, catching up with you after will be near impossible because they won't know where you went. If you really want a long range teleport, get a warp whistle. Teleporting a long distance will make it hard (near impossible) for anyone without a vita compass to follow you. Like, how would someone write that? At least for flight they can try to shoot you as you leave. For stealth + suppression + teleport disappearing, yeah. There's no real way I can think of that would let them find you besides spamming AoEs or something like that. Either way, I don't see why you'd need to teleport further than 80m at once.
RE: Rules Feedback - Schwi Dola - 03-08-2018
You make it sound like I want to teleport 300 meters instantaneously when I want to take a lot of time leaving room to counter in the move and it can't be uses to dodge anything.
I want the option to discuss and tune such moves, this isn't the thread to debate specifics on a particular move.
RE: Rules Feedback - Omni - 03-08-2018
What I should probably work on is defining the upper range limits of Super Attacks, since some of the radii people have tried to get approved are absolutely silly. That'll be on my to-do list.
80 metres should be more than enough to dodge anything or do anything required for teleportation feats, and I have no intention of raising that hard limit.
To reiterate what I posted in the staff forum: teleport's ranges were designed so that it can always be useful in combat, outside of combat as a utility thing, and as a generally useful power - but it's not meant to override travel times.
RE: Rules Feedback - Schwi Dola - 03-08-2018
To reiterate whatbi am looking for does not affect travel tines in a significant manner and is not a super defense, I want a super escape move to be possible based on teleport.
To show this, the same 1000 foot for 2 sp move I suggest could instead be used to have 10 speed and gain a magnitude more distance for the cost. While my 1000 feet would take time and has many builtin flaws.
A 2 SP. super cloak could do what I want but I want to be cool and flashy and write an interesting narrative with this escape attempt, and 1000 feet is by no means im guaranteed escape even i I pull it off.
80 meters is not a signifiant distance to run away from combat, I want to do more with a super move.
This move
Quote:Dane focuses for a brief moment, mentally linking different points in space. This takes about a second, and he has to stand roughly still. Afterwards, the next 5 teleports Dane executes are instant and don't require a charge time - but are just as tiring as normal, and each applies a 1-second cooldown to his teleportation power (and any associated moves). He can bring willing allies with him if they're touching him, but they'll feel dizzy for a short moment afterwards if they don't have mimic or the teleport power, and will always suffer fatigue as if they teleported by themselves. Any instant teleports not used up within the 30 seconds are lost.
Travels farther than what I want to do in less time with half the SP cost. There are various other large and some details between the kind of move I want to approve and this but 80 x 5 is 400 which is less than the 304 meters I want to teleport in one go.
RE: Rules Feedback - Strazio Rockwell - 04-04-2018
Currently the rule for NPC primes is that they can be up to level 6 or equal to your level, whichever is higher. Would it be possible for this restriction to instead be Level 6 or equal to your level + 1. In other words if you're level 7 you can have an NPC prime that is level 8.
My reasoning would be that if I have a big bad arch nemesis or rival eventually my character will hit a point where on paper they will be the same strength. At least in terms of SP and other level based unlocks. This kinda limits certain story options that I can pursue since my antagonist will more or less be on the same level.
As an example let's say my charry was level 7 and I wanted the badguy to hit him with some amazing attack that he can't defend against all that the bad guy would have is a T2 super move which my charry is capable of defending if they have the appropriate super. With this change my badguy can be level 8 and have access to T3 super moves which my level 7 charry would be unable to completely defend against. I know this is being a bit gamey and that there is plenty of room for artistic liberties, but I figure this would be a simple enough change to allow for a bit more freedom when it comes to this stuff.
RE: Rules Feedback - Trixie - 04-04-2018
(04-04-2018, 08:26 PM)Strazio Rockwell Wrote: Currently the rule for NPC primes is that they can be up to level 6 or equal to your level, whichever is higher. Would it be possible for this restriction to instead be Level 6 or equal to your level + 1. In other words if you're level 7 you can have an NPC prime that is level 8.
My reasoning would be that if I have a big bad arch nemesis or rival eventually my character will hit a point where on paper they will be the same strength. At least in terms of SP and other level based unlocks. This kinda limits certain story options that I can pursue since my antagonist will more or less be on the same level.
As an example let's say my charry was level 7 and I wanted the badguy to hit him with some amazing attack that he can't defend against all that the bad guy would have is a T2 super move which my charry is capable of defending if they have the appropriate super. With this change my badguy can be level 8 and have access to T3 super moves which my level 7 charry would be unable to completely defend against. I know this is being a bit gamey and that there is plenty of room for artistic liberties, but I figure this would be a simple enough change to allow for a bit more freedom when it comes to this stuff.
The line right after the limit says that you can make a request for stronger NPC Primes if you plan on using them as a major villain in a storyline or something to that effect. If you'd like to make a villain at level 10 for your personal story line that would be a goal for your character to strive toward defeating, just ask. Draw up an NPC Prime sheet of this level 10 NPC and submit it with the proper explanation of what you intend to use it for and why they're so strong. We'll give you a yay or nay.
Quote:NPC Strength and Interaction with Players
Prime NPCs may either be up to your own character's level, or Level 6 if your character is Level 6 or below. When running larger storylines you may request special permission for stronger NPCs. Regardless of these limits, NPCs are not in place to give your character an in-character advantage. That's what Assists are for. These limits are in place to prevent 'NPC inflation' among newer players and for worldkeeping reasons.
A larger story line can consist of just your character. It just means, like you said, this villain is recurring and is going to be something your character is going to have to really strive to defeat.
RE: Rules Feedback - Reece - 04-06-2018
I was just thinking about Phasing (after reading one of Dane's comments on Jeff's new character) and it occurred to me that even though weapons are supposed to be balanced by Omniphysics, energy/elemental weapons actually have a distinct advantage over the others, even though their power level should really be the same. This probably hasn't been pointed out before because not that many people use Phasing, but it doesn't really make sense from a balancing perspective for someone with a lightsaber to be able to cut a Phased character whilst someone with a regular sword cannot.
Quote:Due to this balancing effect, two weapons summoned by the same individual that result in the same effect will always have the same strength, regardless of the weapon's mechanism. Be it steampunk technology, magically-powered or modern technology, the effect will be the same. They are linked to the user's own skill and power, and so a stronger individual can often summon a stronger weapon. As a result of this so-called 'balancing effect', summoning a weapon that is powerful in real-life such as a rifle won't be more powerful than a traditional equivalent such as a bow and arrow.
Quote:Phasing – 1200 OM
With this power a character may render all or part of their body incorporeal, making you effectively invulnerable but unable to attack. While in this form you will be partially transparent (other characters can tell the difference, basically). While in this incorporeal energy form, you may pass through objects and physical attacks, but you are unable to attack. It is very useful for avoiding attacks, but takes a few moments of concentration to activate dependent on your SPD. For example, a SPD of 0 would take a couple of seconds to activate, whereas a SPD of 10+ would be almost instantaneous. Be warned that while phasing, you are still vulnerable to energy and elemental-based attacks. In addition, staying in a phased state slowly fatigues the user and will eventually cause them to pass out if maintained for a very long time.
RE: Rules Feedback - Trixie - 04-06-2018
It's the trade off for being invulnerable to physical attacks? Otherwise phasing would be have to be renamed Invulnerability.
RE: Rules Feedback - Dane Regan - 04-06-2018
(04-06-2018, 01:26 AM)Trixie Wrote: It's the trade off for being invulnerable to physical attacks? Otherwise phasing would be have to be renamed Invulnerability.
But Physical Attacks are balanced identically to Elemental ones. Which is Reece's problem.
Given this, Elemental attacks are objectively better. And, the point of the OV is: "two weapons summoned by the same individual that result in the same effect will always have the same strength, regardless of the weapon's mechanism". The elemental-physical thing contradicts that.
RE: Rules Feedback - Trixie - 04-06-2018
(04-06-2018, 01:29 AM)Dane Regan Wrote:(04-06-2018, 01:26 AM)Trixie Wrote: It's the trade off for being invulnerable to physical attacks? Otherwise phasing would be have to be renamed Invulnerability.
But Physical Attacks are balanced identically to Elemental ones. Which it Reece's problem.
I don't see how balance enters the equation. If you have phasing you can use it to become invulnerable to physical attacks REGARDLESS of who uses them or what balancing their subject to.
RE: Rules Feedback - Dane Regan - 04-06-2018
(04-06-2018, 01:30 AM)Trixie Wrote: I don't see how balance enters the equation. If you have phasing you can use it to become invulnerable to physical attacks REGARDLESS of who uses them or what balancing their subject to.
So Elemental attacks are objectively better than physical ones?
Since a rapid fire set of blasts of fire, and a gun with the same fire rate (both with the same fatigue costs and other drawbacks) would be equal in strength against a normal person, but only the first would hit someone who's phasing.
And, "Elemental" is very vague.
That should all sum up Reece's problem here.
RE: Rules Feedback - Trixie - 04-06-2018
(04-06-2018, 01:32 AM)Dane Regan Wrote:(04-06-2018, 01:30 AM)Trixie Wrote: I don't see how balance enters the equation. If you have phasing you can use it to become invulnerable to physical attacks REGARDLESS of who uses them or what balancing their subject to.
So Elemental attacks are objectively better than physical ones?
Since a rapid fire set of blasts of fire, and a gun with the same fire rate (both with the same fatigue costs and other drawbacks) would be equal in strength against a normal person, but only the first would hit someone who's phasing.
And, "Elemental" is very vague.
That should all sum up Reece's problem here.
Again...this circles back to only if you have Phasing and if you're actively using it. You're electing to take a downside by being extra vulnerable to energy when using Phasing to dodge physical attacks. Having Phasing doesn't mean that Energy/Elemental based attacks are automatically stronger than Physical. It just means that BECAUSE you're using the power at that specific time, you're more vulnerable than someone who isn't.
RE: Rules Feedback - Reece - 04-06-2018
(04-06-2018, 01:32 AM)Dane Regan Wrote: And, "Elemental" is very vague.
Dane actually makes a really good point.
I was assuming this referred to the classical elements (though why a sword made of stone would harm someone intangible is beyond me)...
But if it refers to real elements then my third character (Ahana) should be able to attack phased people, since her spears are made of pure gold (atomic number 79, if you wanna go check the periodic table).
Seems a bit unfair that she can hurt Phased people when someone with a regular steel sword can't.
RE: Rules Feedback - Dane Regan - 04-06-2018
@Trix: And, again, that's a contradiction with a very core aspect of the rules:
Quote:Moves, whether offensive or defensive, may not have benefits against particular elements or character types. For example, an attack which pierces water shields, or a shield super-effective against fire. This is because due to the nature of our site, some characters may solely utilise a particular elements like flame or electricity, whereas others may use several elements, or original elements that exist only in their own fiction. We don't want people to pick characters based on perceived advantages and disadvantages, or characters who use many elements to have an advantage over those who are specialised. Therefore, these elements are to be regarded as "fluff". If you want to give your move fodder by saying it only works against evil characters or mechanical characters, that's your choice, but it won't improve the move's efficacy or give you any special advantage, because it is purely fodder.
Phasing gives an advantage against "physical" attacks. Or elemental/energy attacks give an advantage against phasing.
The general point here is that the type of damage shouldn't (and doesn't, in most cases) matter. Like, if I shoot Trixie in the face with a bullet. And then do that with a fire spell (same drawbacks and stats). Both will do the exact same damage.
Yet, why should one bypass phasing where the other doesn't? Or, why does phasing give an advantage against one type of attacks? That means our bullet-heavy gunner will suck against someone with phasing. But someone with identical moves made out of energy blasts and such (i.e. same strength, same drawbacks, and same stats for the purpose of this argument) will be able to shoot a phasing person easily.
It leads for an unfair divide, and can prompt: "We don't want people to pick characters based on perceived advantages and disadvantages, or characters who use many elements to have an advantage over those who are specialised."
The whole point of the OV is that every character should be potentially viable, as everyone is subject to the same sense of balance. If you make a lightsaber and a longsword, both the same size with the same drawbacks, they will be identical in strength, even if (outside of the OV) the lightsaber would be able to slice through the sword.
I think that should summarise all the points here? Either way, let's leave it here now.
RE: Rules Feedback - Cell - 04-06-2018
While I don't necessarily disagree with Reece's/Dane's point, this has come up in the past and Alex/Omni were fine with how it was.
RE: Rules Feedback - Luci - 04-06-2018
Relevant?
http://omniverse-rpg.com/showthread.php?tid=7401
RE: Rules Feedback - Omni - 04-06-2018
Just another heads up (both to members and staff), that while I don't want to close this thread, I like seeing the discussion and everything, it's not an "ACTION NOW!" topic. I like to read and reflect and then type up my thoughts. As I acknowledge in the OP, while the system is not perfect, iteration takes time and reflection.
While I won't stop you, nobody needs to "defend" the rules as they are. This is just a suggestions topic, open for people to give their points of view. Discussion is cool but there's no need to "shut down" everything or for me to address things immediately. I want to keep this topic open but please stop stressing about it and PMing me about it, unless it's really urgent. Just let the ideas sit until I can have a look at them.
RE: Rules Feedback - Dane Regan - 04-06-2018
Mulling over everything, the main point raised in Luci's thread was "Phasing is a Power, with its own up-sides and downsides that are independent of the balancing criteria for moves." (Quote from Ghidorah, but other mods said similar things)
I'd disagree. That power influences the general balance of moves, even if it, itself, is balanced.
A comparable example would be Dota. Or Smite. Or any other MOBA. If they give someone a new ability, or make a new character. They need to consider how it will work with everything else. It being balanced independently of everything else can really skew the game once it's shoved in. If there's a power for physical immunity, why isn't there one for elemental immunity (but with physical vulnerability)? Which does, subtly, influence the balance of moves somewhat - either meaning elemental/energy attacks should be a little weaker since they can hit phasing people. Since, at the moment, an elemental/energy attack has the objective bonus of being able to hit someone who's phasing.
My Conclusion: All the phasing power lets you do is walk through walls. Being vulnerable to one "damage type" is the same as being vulnerable to all damage types in the OV, especially when there's no similar power-based counter for elemental ones (there would be no drawback to me taking any non-energy move and turning it into one). Alternatively, increase the fatigue drain and buff phasing to let someone be invulnerable to all attacks that can pass through them (I'm not saying there shouldn't be a subset of moves that can hit phasing people, but they should be clearly indicated inside the move when it's being approved to prevent confusion. Or well defined). Or maybe both. As Omni said, it's not an "action now" place, but my suggestion would be something like this (but probably rewritten):
[spoiler]I'm not saying we should get both of these, or use these suggested costs, but I think changing phasing to either be one or the other or both would definitely suit most people who dislike the way phasing is now. And, personally, I think they look fairer.
Phasing - Basic – 800 OM
With this power, a character may render all or part of their body incorporeal. While in this form you will be partially transparent (other characters can tell the difference, basically). While in this incorporeal energy form, you may pass through objects but not attacks. You are also unable to attack. It takes a few moments of concentration to activate dependent on your SPD. For example, a SPD of 0 would take a couple of seconds to activate, whereas a SPD of 10+ would be almost instantaneous. While you cannot attack, phasing can still be a very useful power for trying to escape or reach a more advantageous position. This power allows the creation of moves that pass through shields and other boundaries as if they aren't there. In addition, staying in a phased state slowly fatigues the user and will eventually cause them to pass out if maintained for a very long time. The level of fatigue increases slightly when inside walls and other objects.
This has a reduced cost to normal phasing, as it only lets you walk through walls. I added in the comment about "attacks going through shields" because that's a general precedent I've seen used for similar moves like that, and it explicitly states another use for the power. The mention of getting tired by spending time in walls is more fluff than anything else, but it fits something I added to the 'advanced' version.
---
Phasing - Advanced – 1500 OM (700 OM if upgrading from Basic)
The advanced version of phasing also allows a character to phase through attacks while incorporeal. However, you also suffer a wave of fatigue for every attack that passes through you, so while this does make phasing much more useful and nearly invulnerable to damage, this is limited and more suited to assist repositioning and escaping rather than tanking attacks. Be wary, as you will only be immune to attacks that need to touch or hit you (like bullets and explosions). People can still use telepathy on you, and so on, potentially offering a few options of damage. Avoiding a super attack with phasing will require a super defence.
This has an increased cost to normal phasing, as it provides immunity to lightsabers and swords and fireballs and bullets and so on. All attacks. As a further method of balance, I added in a mention that attacks going through someone who's phasing make them get tired. In the original power, it says someone can stay phasing for "a very long time" until they pass out. This being added should make someone feel less hopeless against someone they can't hit, and provide a benefit to actually aiming at someone who's incorporeal. The latter comment about telepathy is just a suggestion for a way that could still damage someone who's phasing. Tearen had a move that just needed eye contact to work. I have one for Dane (which I need to buy). I'm sure there would be other ways to hit someone who's phasing, but having it be based around a certain set of powers rather than a type of attack (when attack types aren't meant to give an advantage) makes more sense. Alternatively, I guess someone with phasing could get a phasing move that only hurts phasing people. I added the mention of super defences since the teleportation power also says that.[/spoiler]
Just some food for thought. I'm not a fan of saying "this sucks, it needs changing" (but, in nicer words with reasoning added) without providing a potential solution. Even if that 'solution' might not be needed (at least, from some opinions - I'd vouch for it, obviously). Can I ask that we don't get a bombardment of replies amounting to 'we should totally use Dane's idea', if you're not adding to it. This thread is for discussion, not petitions.
RE: Rules Feedback - Omni - 04-06-2018
You basically came up with something similar to my thoughts, Dane, which was making Phasing an environment-only power (with the caveats as your description does about letting you make phased projectiles and the like) and then POSSIBLY making a separate 'Invulnerability' power (which could be utilised in conjunction with Phasing) for limited bouts of total invulnerability to all attacks. Right now I'm leaning towards "let people make up their own versions of that through moves", but it merits some personal thought. Any further ideas I have, I'll put in The Loft (since I like to keep granular discussion of systems implementation as part of a smaller team, rather than a wide-open forum).
RE: Rules Feedback - Jack Darby - 04-14-2018
One of the suggestions I came up with was putting a link to the Unlocks that could be done in the Rules, so people could more readily access such information for themselves.