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+--- Thread: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline (/showthread.php?tid=3195)
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Minato Namikaze - 11-23-2015
Okay, I am going to say this once and only once.
Your character, if banished DOES NOT have to WILLINGLY give in to Diablo. You can Kick and scream, cause a fuss, attack, deny him and his minion's wants as much as you want. But ultimately, you will need to find a way to impress him. The power that Diablo holds is immense, yes, and he is the embodiment of evil. But there are more ways than one to 'prove your worth' to him. You don't need to take your character, do a complete 180 and have them join him just to get out of the Omniverse.
Yes, the quest does say;
Quote:he may see fit to send you to the world above; an agent of his unfathomable schemes.But that does not mean you have to actually join him and align yourself with him. There are more ways than one to help someone's cause without actually being a part of it.
WARNING: I'm going to use a real world example here, and it can be a very controversial one. but I think we, as a community, are mature enough to be able to discuss it without flying of the rails. So here goes...
When we look at terrorism, we don't need to actually be terrorists to fuel their cause. All they want to do is instill a sense of fear in our society. To make us fear them, to take credit for things they may or may not have done. To make us segregate people of the same religion and racial background so that they will see no other option but to join their cause.
So if we take that into perspective, what's not to say that "Becoming an agent of his unfathomable schemes" Isn't just you being sent back, alive, as a message from Diablo telling everyone that he's still there. Telling everyone to be afraid of him?
Bottom line, You do not need to join Diablo to have him send you back to the regular Omniverse.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Guu - 11-23-2015
@Adam: That's a fair point.
Though, I do think we still need other quest options. If not to give players a choice, but not everyone plays combat characters.
After all, there's many ways to get to the Oververse, but only one way out of the Underverse... and in the grand scheme of things, more people will be going through the latter rather than the former.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Schwi Dola - 11-24-2015
So, you think Diablo is just going to do a Xanatos Gambit with every last Prime that doesn't join him?
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - The Dreamer - 11-24-2015
Well... You dont know exactly what he'd do Desco. None of us do. Although many points still stand regardless.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Schwi Dola - 11-24-2015
If he is willing to let people go that haven't so much as agreed to join him and instead unknowingly serve him that's a Xanatos Gambit. Trusting that he has manipulated the situation in such a way that what ever you do serves Diablo's interests
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Omni - 11-24-2015
Diablo is the only guy with the kind of power who could ever free anyone from the Underverse.
But hey, you could always ... lie to him? Maybe that's what Tyrael tells your character to do if you're good? You don't have to adhere strictly to the quest guidelines, except that you ultimately have to go through Diablo for obvious (see above) reasons.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Guu - 11-24-2015
@Omni: That was brought up earlier. The main concern is he'll most likely find out after the fact that you've been dishonest, and if you get banished again (which is a possibility considering how banish happy some members are,) he wouldn't let you leave on those grounds.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Omni - 11-24-2015
I mean, I feel like this is the kind of thing that individual writers should work around and be a plot device rather than a problem with the rules. So far nobody has even escaped from the Underverse, let alone been banished twice, so it might be jumping the guns to try 'fixing' the rules already.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - The Dreamer - 11-24-2015
Although you cant say thinking ahead is a bad thing.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Omni - 11-24-2015
Not at all! It's fun to discuss ways of improving things and future plans. Just as long as people realise that we are nowhere near in need of changing this quest. If in the future things get problematic, we can look at what didn't work in practice, what gave people the most problems, et cetera.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - The Dreamer - 11-24-2015
That's fair. Although I still think the price of Banishment Circles should be looked at.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Naruto Uzumaki - 11-24-2015
Omni Wrote:You don't have to adhere strictly to the quest guidelines, except that you ultimately have to go through Diablo for obvious (see above) reasons.
AW YEAH
ROCK OFF HERE I COME
![[Image: 927.gif]](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/697/235/927.gif)
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Schwi Dola - 11-24-2015
So can you get kicked out of the underverse because all you do is kill Secondaries? Cost to throw out < cost to keep. Maybe Geno could leave that way.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Violet - 11-24-2015
Naruto Uzumaki Wrote:Omni Wrote:You don't have to adhere strictly to the quest guidelines, except that you ultimately have to go through Diablo for obvious (see above) reasons.
AW YEAH
ROCK OFF HERE I COME
JFC that's awesome.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Undyne - 11-24-2015
Well... first thing off, thank you to everyone who's joined into this conversation - it's amazing to see so many big personalities from the site, including even Proto and Greg/Omni, having a mature debate around here. It's been a very enjoyable read to me thus far!
I see both sides having a fair point, really - Freedom to write and developing your character, vs the Underverse being more than just an inconvenience that you'll get out of after just writing up a handful of big posts. I believe I may have looked at this comparison a bit too "black and white", though I do keep believing the arguments Arthuria and I put up in the original post - in that, in my opinion, the Underverse would need to have a change somewhere.
A few further ideas that I came up with (partially inspired by the other posts, I'll admit it) are listed in the spoiler below, in any case. I feel like they capture the "Evil"ness of the Underverse whilst still allowing for character development. They're just vague designs for now though.[spoiler]An alternate questline: Crafting an Antibanishment Circle. It would be a gray area for good characters, forced to do evil things in order to escape the Underverse. Crafting an AB-Circle or whatever we're going to call it would require components scattered across the Underverse, which are very hard to obtain - like say, a rare ore, an incantation held in a book only present in Diablo's palace and a strand of his hair, all forged together in the hellfires of some closely guarded forge. The quest would then involve searching these ingredients and serving other demons in various ways to have a hope at acquiring it - and of course, those demons might just not keep their end of the bargain anyway. It'd be something your character has to do reluctantly, disgusted at themselves and helplessly angry - but when they finally hold that AB-Circle in their hands, it will have been worth it. Subsequent attempts would be easier because your character already knows where to look.
Sleeper Agent for Diablo. This is based on the current "Diablo can get you out of the Underverse" idea. You might not agree to become his servant, but who's to say that you have to be? Diablo could have his subordinates implant some form of posthypnotic order into your mind, triggered through something, then send you off to the Omniverse once more. Perhaps he intends you to deliver a gruesome message to Aragorn, speaking through you, or he will have you attempt to defeat a powerful secondary to weaken the Omniverse in preparation of his return - maybe he'll even have you do it thinking it's your own idea, so you gather a handful of allies for better chances!
Do you want fodder for a site-wide event? How about rather than doing minor tasks, Diablo is gathering a group of Sleeper Agents, to open the Black Gate from the outside? Nobody would expect that, given that people could just lie about how they escaped the Underverse, and take up residence in Camelot for any excuse.
Help from outside. This inspired by the Dwarf Fortress demons for anyone who happens to know the game, but there is a mechanic where demons stuck in Hell are summoned to the surface world by a deity which inscribes their true name on a stone slab. That slab can then be used, if the adventurer finds it, to banish the demon back to Hell.
There could be a similar consumable - the banished character must purchase it, put it into the Omniverse remotely, and someone else must summon them from the Underverse using that consumable. However, if someone is able to obtain the item, they can instantly banish the character brought back from the Underverse, right back down there.
Diablo sending people back for other reasons. This is more of a recollection of what other people mentioned - like Adam's nd Minato's proposition that Diablo would send back people simply as a show of power, to startle the Omniversians as in "I can do this, be afraid of me."[/spoiler]
This might also be making the Underverse a bit too harmless, but how about making it a bit more prison-like? A character sent down there will be stuck for a period of OOC time - say, some three months, which is a lot - before the next time they die they will respawn at the Nexus like usual. In addition, a minimum number of words would be required to be written in the Underverse so your character actually suffers a bit.
EDIT: To the above point I should say that that period of time should be in addition to the option of going through Diablo, not a replacement. Some people may want to get out early or be content with going through Diablo through any means.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - 2B - 11-24-2015
Alexyana Wrote:This might also be making the Underverse a bit too harmless, but how about making it a bit more prison-like? A character sent down there will be stuck for a period of OOC time - say, some three months, which is a lot - before the next time they die they will respawn at the Nexus like usual. In addition, a minimum number of words would be required to be written in the Underverse so your character actually suffers a bit.
EDIT: To the above point I should say that that period of time should be in addition to the option of going through Diablo, not a replacement. Some people may want to get out early or be content with going through Diablo through any means.
Personally, I cannot stand behind this idea. That would be making it even more of an OOC punishment than it already is in my opinion. That would mostly mean that you'd be locked out of your own personal storylines for even longer, than you originally intended.
Because for example I myself think, that I'd be able to get out of the Underverse in a week or two, should I find the motivation for it, even though it'd likely end up screwing with the alignment of my character in a way that I don't desire. Then again, it has been pointed out in this thread, that maybe we did indeed view it a bit too black and white. But still, it's a case of lack of information, that leads at least myself, to expect the worst outcomes, as they would be "logical" for such a place, in my mind at least.
EDIT: Clarification has been added to Yana's post, so my point is now moot.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Minato Namikaze - 11-24-2015
I'm nott shooting anyone down here, but I really cannot get behind the Idea of adding in new quests that make it easier for Player Controlled Primes to leave the Underverse.
The Underverse was cut off from the Omniverse to seal Diablo away and keep him from Terraforming the rest of the Omniverse into his own twisted world. For that reason, the only way in is Banishment.
The Omni-Forsaken place is supposed to be hell, you're supposed to be trapped there, forced to kick and scream. Forced to claw your way out of it. Simply putting a time limit on how long you can be there for, before dying and just returning to the Nexus would simply be out of character for the verse itself.
People just won't write for that amount of time, and once they have been there for the three months (or however long this time is), they will just write one post (no matter the word count) detailing how they died.
The Underverse is, quite literally, meant to be a fate worse than death, the worst Hell imaginable. Getting out is not supposed to be easy.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Schwi Dola - 11-24-2015
Forcing Diablo to kick you out would be a different quest with the same end point. Diablo. It doesn't make it easier ooc-wise or ic-wise.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Stephan Donnel - 11-24-2015
Literally the only problem that everyone has with Diablo (he is a nice guy) is that the way the quest is worded you will have to be his bitch.
This is only made to clean up the possible misunderstanding Desco seems to have.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Guu - 11-24-2015
Since not everyone could see it, I'll put these here too. These are alternatives to the underverse quest I thought up that still involved gaining Diablo's favor. Considering the similarities to the original quest, you could possibly ask whatever Cherub is judging to do them this way if you like, since Omni and Proto or fine deviating a little bit.
Guu Wrote:Path of Pain: Refusing to play Diablo's game, choosing to suffer instead of go with his whims, the character will burn. They will die horribly many many times. This breaks them mentally; leaving permanent lasting scars. After suffering horrible terrible anguish for months on end, Diablo is impressed by your endurance. He sends you to the surface as a reward. However, unknowing to the character, he wants to show the world what the underverse is capable of by showing them your mentally broken ass. This path will probably have an increased word count and a requirement that the judge must cringe reading the material.
Path of Grief: In your desperation to escape the torment, you journey to the castle, pay many prices and sacrifice much to get an audience with Diablo himself. You beg him for a way out, and he offers for another person to take your place in hell. It is outright required that this person must be a loved one; someone you will regret submitting to endless torment, and the deal will weigh your character down with guilt. While you could gain the audience through the colosseum, you could also get to him through other means, either through trickery or several messed up deals. However, it's a requirement that it wouldn't be easy. Demons are difficult to beguile and bargain with.
Go ahead and steal them if you like, or take inspiration. There's many ways to go about this quest I guess. As long as you leave the underverse with baggage and you go through Diablo, it's still meeting the criteria to some extent.