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+--- Thread: Rules Feedback (/showthread.php?tid=3266)
RE: Rules Feedback - Strazio Rockwell - 02-16-2018
(01-28-2018, 10:23 PM)Strazio Rockwell Wrote: Perhaps this is a bit of topic necromancy considering there was a thread and everything about it like five months ago. But I'd like to toss in some thoughts/suggestions regarding quests.
I like that quests don't give a flat amount of OM and that the payout is tied in with the quality of writing, and I understand the reasoning behind the change. That said I do miss having that extra incentive to do a quest rather than slapping together my own storyline, especially considering I can submit non-quest storylines for the same rewards. I remember some quests used to offer unique consumables in lieu of a flat OM reward. I really enjoyed this because it gave my characters something that no one else had without it being a full blown artefact. For instance Renji earned a Moogle Food Pill that gave him +2 ATK for an entire fight. Simple, sweet, not too strong, and something that only he had because he completed a quest for Ambrosia. In another instance Strazio and Gamzee earned a couple of standard elixers for saving a potion maker's son. Of course we could have bought the elixers ourselves and still acted as if the potion-maker had given us a reward, but again it felt like a nice little pat on the back for completing a quest and impacting the Overse slightly. I think it also adds a bit of depth to the world, not everyone would be able to pay a prime with om and some have unique skills that allow them to pay primes in other ways.
I know flavor items as rewards exist, but I also think those could be taken a step further. Perhaps have them as a pre-made move that the character could earn without having to pay 300 OM to fashion a flavor item into an actual move?
Would it be possible to add back some unique rewards like that? Of course not every quest should offer any additional reward beyond pats on the back and those that do offer rewards would offer ones relative to their difficulty. Perhaps some could even have scaling rewards, only offering the additional rewards depending on exceptional grades?
Here are some ideas that I've brainstormed.
[spoiler] - Stronger Food Pills
- Flavor items that are moves (This one could be really versatile, and could be more than just fancy swords and shields. Perhaps you earn a magic tattoo that lets you cast fireball or something like that.)
- Consumables that summon an assist for one round. (Maybe saibamen seeds or something like that.)
- Consumables that cast a super move. (These would probably be rare as hell and only exist in the tougher quests)
- Flavor items that are power-ups or alternate forms (You'd still pay SP, but maybe a curse mark that turns you into a werewolf?)
- Alternatively consumables that act as a one-round power-up. (Adrenaline shot or other drugs)
[/spoiler]
Bumping this for a bit more attention, those that saw it seemed to respond favorably to it and I personally like the idea a lot.
RE: Rules Feedback - Omni - 02-16-2018
I'll be honest, I'm basically anti-encouraging quests, as someone who always preferred to write their own storylines (which is harder in a way - no prompt) but always felt pressured to take quests because there was always a greater reward for doing so.
The problem is also balancing. When I let people do their own quest rewards, usually people writing them had cool story ideas but often no idea of balanced rewards. I'd be okay with it, but it requires me to personally go through every quest and balance the rewards - all for the benefit of gimmick items that you could just make up as roleplay fodder. Now, roleplay fodder rewards are another thing. I'd much rather quest writers stuck to those. If the saibamen seeds can't be used in a fight, or are just for fun? (Don't actually help you, in other words) then cool, fine.
Most of Alex's faction quests give some kind of fodder reward, which is p. cool. Personally I don't really write quests/prompts unless it's part of a larger overarching thing - just not my shtick tbh (probably because I don't 'get it' on a personal level, as aforementioned, I like to build storylines out of my character's motivations).
RE: Rules Feedback - Strazio Rockwell - 02-16-2018
Maybe I'm biased because I've had plenty of positive experiences with quests. I've used quests to give both of my characters direction and purpose when I was unsure of what to do with them. Especially when I first joined.
I understand the sentiment that quests may be the "optimal" way to go in terms of rewards, but I personally don't think that'd be a problem if the unique reward quests were sufficiently difficult. I mean look at the star pieces for an (admittedly drastic) example, only some of our best and most dedicated writers have even attempted to gather them let alone actually complete the quest.
As far as balancing I completely understand the concern. Maybe limit the number of rewards quests active in any given verse? That way once you get past the initial implimentation you've only got a handful of quests to approved rewards for every month or so. You could even pre-approve rewards so all that is needed is for them to be cycled in once old quests are completed.
Fodder items are cool, but as I said I think adding a pre-built move to some of them would be neat.
Again I'm not suggesting some widespread 5+ quests in each verse thing, but variety would be nice and I think it could give freshies something to strive for while they figure out how/where their character fits into the Omniverse as a whole. Just my 2 cents.
RE: Rules Feedback - Sasuke Uchiha - 02-16-2018
Personally I think it's already balanced. Yea, you will be granted slightly better rewards with quests(I think those who are for quest rewards agree they should be small rewards not great ones) but like you said, personal roleplays offer freedom in your writing. Plus, quests offer the sites guidance over how their content is arranged. If the site wants certain things to start happening in a zone, quests are a great way to enact that change. Overall, I think a ton of players here come for the progression of the game just as much for the writing, so its nice to to work towards a reward even if it offers no real IC advantage, like Defender of Darkshire. Speaking of which, rewards like the defender of Darkshire hold more merit among the users because the site offered it. If Strazio had just come up with the fodder idea himself, it wouldn't have garnered the kind of attention it did. It was a real title bestowed upon him by the site, which gave it more importance. So, yea, I'm for quest rewards, even if they're just Site fodder content without a real advantage.
RE: Rules Feedback - Omni - 02-16-2018
Just to say, while I wanted to explain my thoughts and reasoning, I'm taking your opinion on board as well Straz.
As far as quests giving more rewards being justifiable because they're long and difficult, the same can go for most personal storylines too. Hell, I still haven't finished most of the ones I've started (not that I'm a rolemodel for writing quantity). For me personally, I just feel there's no reason a quest should give more.
What I DO think is that, while an appropriate item reward for a quest shouldn't be so great as to invalidate non-quest writing, I'm cool with an item being more expensive than a straight OM reward, at least in theory. That's because you don't get to choose what it is (unlike free OM which can become any reward).
The other problem is the complexity in grading. Quests need a separate system for approval/grading if we're going to be replacing the OM reward with something else. Such a system needs to be balanced - which makes it a pain in the ass for graders using it. We kinda have a hard enough time getting things graded promptly as is, without adding more complexity and staff work. So yeah, while a limited number of quests with special rewards is okay, I definitely think they should be the exception rather than the rule.
In practice what that means is, people can still try to submit ideas for quests with special rewards, I just hope they do so in a way that keeps it fairly balanced with standard OM rewards, and I wouldn't expect staff to start churning out such quests because it's a pain in the ass and frankly, it's just not priority #1. I'd rather make more events and focus on special rewards for those - they give more people a chance to participate, so it makes sense to spend our time on those, rather than focusing on small quests that can be done by a single person.
RE: Rules Feedback - Amaterasu - 02-19-2018
I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to link to a judging template for fights, or a 'standard' ruleset for people to look at unless they want to come up with their own. Failbro has made a very good one for the regular 3-round fight, Thaal has one that is fitting for events, and there may be more that I am missing completely.
To be clear, I don't want this to be restrictive, I'm all about leaving the Omniverse open to change. But being able to look at a ruleset might be nice for new players who want to dip their toes into the fighting scenery and want to see what the rules look like.
RE: Rules Feedback - Alex - 02-19-2018
Anytime someone picks someone as a judge for their fight, they should make sure they have a conversation with how the judge plans to... well, judge. There's no rule that says the combatants can't request their judge use a template (whether an existing one or something else).
RE: Rules Feedback - Amaterasu - 02-19-2018
(02-19-2018, 08:45 AM)Alex Wrote: Anytime someone picks someone as a judge for their fight, they should make sure they have a conversation with how the judge plans to... well, judge. There's no rule that says the combatants can't request their judge use a template (whether an existing one or something else).
I know. Having both judged and been judged in the past I've seen some templates. My suggestion was that links could be placed somewhere into the rules as a "Here's an example of a template that you can use."
RE: Rules Feedback - Alex - 02-19-2018
My devil's advocate rebuttal to that would be to say there's nothing in the rules that says judges *have* to provide any sort of detailed feedback, outside of a verdict of "X wins." Anything beyond that is the judge going out of their way to do extra (albeit polite and helpful) work.
RE: Rules Feedback - Amaterasu - 02-19-2018
Huh... I'll admit I've never thought of it that way. For events okay, things have to be fast, but I figured that some amount of feedback beyond the verdict was mandatory, to reduce bias and whatnot. Maybe then, a collection of linked resources on a pinned thread would be better, but that falls outside the scope of this thread, IMHO.
In any case, thanks for explaining :yay:
RE: Rules Feedback - Schwi Dola - 03-07-2018
So, considered Teleportation. Master Teleportation even with 10 speed takes several seconds to teleport 80 meters.
10 speed characters can move at 44 meters per second, they can cover that distance in the same time, or faster with a running start. Where is the real advantage with being able to teleport? Narrative wise teleport dodging is usually not a good idea.
I would like to suggest that teleportation restrictions me loosened.
In support of this I would like to ask the question, would
a change make for more interesting stories? That is the question, right now the distance traveled isn't even far enough to get out of range of most projctiles or sensors. Super move to boost sensor range wouldn't ever be nessecary in case someone teleport away since they can't far to begin with.
i would also like to mention that there is tier 3 super move approved with a area far greater than 80 meters so a tier 3 super teleport would never be able to dodge it aimed at your feet. This is the kind of thing that shouldn't happen
RE: Rules Feedback - Dane Regan - 03-07-2018
Teleportation allows you to reach hard-to-get-to areas. Instantly flank and get the drop on someone. Temporarily escape the immediate vicinity of combat without anyone knowing where you went. Just because it's not the fastest method of travel doesn't mean it's not incredibly useful for combat or as a general utility. If you want to be able to use it more often in fights, you could get a move to allow for faster teleports at the cost of more fatigue or something like that.
As for the T3 thing. If you're ever in a fight with that and have a T3 SD where you teleport out the way of an attack, and that attack happens to have a 80m+ radius centered on you, then you can teleport out of range of it. I guess, in this case, a super defense would be an exception - if such a super attack does exist. (Which move were you referring to by the way? I don't remember any T3 super moves with a 160m diameter.)
RE: Rules Feedback - Schwi Dola - 03-08-2018
I want an allowance for long range super move teleportation at appropriate drawbacks determined at move approval.
A T3 Super Move can destroy a few city blocks, a average city block is roughly 80 by 200 meters. So if you explode that under my feet I can't use a T3 Super Teleport to dodge, because you can hit an area bigger than the max range of teleport. (I refer to Protoman.)
A 1000 foot non instant teleport to a location that has been previously visited that can take a group and opens a window for enemies to enter or counter (such as teleporting into the space not even needing a special move) Seems like it should be neogiatable. Not here to argue to specifics.
Super Moves are supposed to be strong and game changing but this restriction reduces the creativity we can use to construct fair moves.
RE: Rules Feedback - Blink - 03-08-2018
(03-08-2018, 12:50 AM)Schwi Dola Wrote: I want an allowance for long range super move teleportation at appropriate drawbacks determined at move approval.
A T3 Super Move can destroy a few city blocks, a average city block is roughly 80 by 200 meters. So if you explode that under my feet I can't use a T3 Super Teleport to dodge, because you can hit an area bigger than the max range of teleport. (I refer to Protoman.)
A 1000 foot non instant teleport to a location that has been previously visited that can take a group and opens a window for enemies to enter or counter (such as teleporting into the space not even needing a special move) Seems like it should be neogiatable. Not here to argue to specifics.
Super Moves are supposed to be strong and game changing but this restriction reduces the creativity we can use to construct fair moves.
You can use teleportation to dodge super moves (even if level 3, assuming you can buy that high a level). You can't increase the distance, but you could do a 'speed teleport' kind of move, or come up with something creative like maybe using velocity to increase your speed via teleport (like jumping into the teleport? i dunno, making it up on the spot here).
RE: Rules Feedback - Viola - 03-08-2018
If Protoman's supermove reachs past a 160m diameter, then there'd likely be an exception. Your T3 super defense will always allow you to avoid a T3 attack. If it doesn't give you a temporary 80m+ range, you'd have to think of something creative. Like teleporting out of existence until the explosion ends or teleporting a couple of times. Or just be vague and say it teleports you "out of danger".
The general consensus is that you don't need to teleport beyond 80m at once. Teleporting further can just stretch a fight over a distance many combatants won't be able to manage easily, and make it hard for your opponent to write. Why are you looking to have a 1000ft long teleport? How do you want it to change the fight?
RE: Rules Feedback - Schwi Dola - 03-08-2018
I want to escape , this move will assist in that. In a pvp situation if it works it would change the narrative pretty drastically but by itself is not a success. They probably have a vita compass so her new location is not an unknown.
Need is a relative term, I don't need an escape move but I want one.
RE: Rules Feedback - Crocodile - 03-08-2018
... why would they probably have a Vita Compass? Most PCs don't actually own one. And, from your wording, if they didn't have one your location WOULD be unknown, thus making a Vita Compass a required item for fighting you.
RE: Rules Feedback - Daniel - 03-08-2018
You are forgetting about how supermoves iteract. If you use a t3 sd against a t3 sa you still negate the damage, even if you didn't "escape" the area of effect, you avoid the damage anyway.
RE: Rules Feedback - Schwi Dola - 03-08-2018
Depends on tbe situation, the area, whether or not they let me escape. Even if I escape and they don't have a compass, they can attempt pursuit and then the battle ends and the judge decides who won.
If I have flight and they don't i can just fly up. If I can stealth and they can't detect I can just walk away, with teleport I would be guaranteed to time to enter stealtb, and these examples are just passive powers without spending sp. Needing something to counter in pvp is basic.
But the winner isn' what happened, but who RP'd what happened better
RE: Rules Feedback - Reece - 03-08-2018
I know you're busy, Omni, but would it be possible to have the Rules page for Powers updated at some point to clarify which ones are allowed to be improved by getting related Moves (e.g. Time Manipulation) and which ones aren't, like Teleportation?
Until now, like Schwi, I had just assumed that all Powers could be improved this way, provided the drawbacks were large enough. It'd be useful for any new members (and people with poor memories, like myself =P ) to have it clarified in the Rules which limits are hard limits and which can be bent.