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+--- Thread: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline (/showthread.php?tid=3195)
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Minato Namikaze - 11-22-2015
I think what Proto said should be considered more than it has been.
Diablo created the Underverse, so any entrances/ Exits to the Omni-Forsaken place are all going to be under control of Diablo, he created them after all. With that being said, and knowing Diablo's character, do you guys really think there wouldn't be any sort of catch behind using them? If Diablo controls them, then he's going to make you jump through some Hoops to use them.
That was just me trying to put forth a little bit more of what Proto was trying to say.
Something else to consider, however, is that Tyrael sacrificed all of his power to seal off the Underverse, he is currently powerless. So even if he used to have the power to create or find ways out of the Underverse, he does not anymore.
And I'm not saying this can't change, I'm just bringing these points up because I feel like they have merit.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Schwi Dola - 11-22-2015
Pal-ing around with Diablo isn't the only way to get out. Or it would just be impossible for most players to get out. That doesn't mean its going to be an easy hey here is how to get out for you.
In other words, exactly what Ganon said is different perspective.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Dark Link - 11-22-2015
Desco Wrote:Pal-ing around with Diablo isn't the only way to get out. Or it would just be impossible for most players to get out. That doesn't mean its going to be an easy hey here is how to get out for you.
In other words, exactly what Ganon said is different perspective.
Desco, read this. Arthuria even linked it in his/her original post. The entire reason behind this thread is because Diablo is currently the only way to escape the Underverse.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Zack Fair - 11-22-2015
I think something else to consider is that the Underverse sucks. It's every version of hell rolled up into one and multiplied. The description outright says the chances of getting killed over and over, only to respawn somewhere else in the same Verse. There's no shelter, relief, or friendly factions. Look at what Violet and Trixie have written for their Underverse stories for some strong examples. It's not a good place, and common knowledge is that there is no way out. The way I see it, reaching a new level of hopelessness and desperation is sort of the point. It may not be your character's personality to play ball with Diablo upon first arriving, but how many nightmarish things would make them begin to consider searching for a way out, no matter what it might be?
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Trixie - 11-22-2015
Zack Fair Wrote:I think something else to consider is that the Underverse sucks. It's every version of hell rolled up into one and multiplied. The description outright says the chances of getting killed over and over, only to respawn somewhere else in the same Verse. There's no shelter, relief, or friendly factions. Look at what Violet and Trixie have written for their Underverse stories for some strong examples. It's not a good place, and common knowledge is that there is no way out. The way I see it, reaching a new level of hopelessness and desperation is sort of the point. It may not be your character's personality to play ball with Diablo upon first arriving, but how many nightmarish things would make them begin to consider searching for a way out, no matter what it might be?
SOMEONE READS MY WRITING! THANK YOU MASSA!
Trixie had her hands and legs cut off. She was branded and infused with experimental serum Wolverine Origins style. It's not pretty shit. She was literally killed in my last post.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Gilgamesh - 11-22-2015
Trixie Wrote:Zack Fair Wrote:I think something else to consider is that the Underverse sucks. It's every version of hell rolled up into one and multiplied. The description outright says the chances of getting killed over and over, only to respawn somewhere else in the same Verse. There's no shelter, relief, or friendly factions. Look at what Violet and Trixie have written for their Underverse stories for some strong examples. It's not a good place, and common knowledge is that there is no way out. The way I see it, reaching a new level of hopelessness and desperation is sort of the point. It may not be your character's personality to play ball with Diablo upon first arriving, but how many nightmarish things would make them begin to consider searching for a way out, no matter what it might be?
SOMEONE READS MY WRITING! THANK YOU MASSA!
Trixie had her hands and legs cut off. She was branded and infused with experimental serum Wolverine Origins style. It's not pretty shit. She was literally killed in my last post.
I'd like to bring a major point that Zack brought up. The Underverse changes you. Literally this. This torture that people have to go through will MAKE your character desperate for relief. Your characters will literally do anything if they can be tortured for literally all of eternity and can never die. I'm fairly sure they can lie to Diablo's face if you want to stay good since he can't really do anything once you escape.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Trixie - 11-22-2015
My views on this entire thing as a member of the Underverse community is that the quest in it's current form needs some work.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Belle - 11-22-2015
Maybe I don't want to be changed like that.
Maybe forcing someone to put their character through that bullshit should be something that costs more than 250 OM.
Maybe a site that's supposed to be about creativity and finding your way shouldn't have such a restricted setup.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Trixie - 11-22-2015
NVM
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Minato Namikaze - 11-22-2015
Belle Wrote:Maybe I don't want to be changed like that.
Maybe forcing someone to put their character through that bullshit should be something that costs more than 250 OM.
Maybe a site that's supposed to be about creativity and finding your way shouldn't have such a restricted setup.
I would like to point out this this is rather inflammatory to this topic, and unless you can discuss this in a civil manner, I am going to ask you to not participate in this discussion.
I get your concern, but being sent to the Underverse is supposed to be and I quote 'Worse than Death'. I'm not saying it's nott too difficult, but the point of the Underverse is to change your character. Whether that's a small or large change, it's supposed to happen.
We often find ourselves wanting to fall into our Canon, keeping our Character on their straight and Narrow. But what we don't realize is that this isn't our character's Canon universe, some things aren't as black and Whitew as they were back in your Character's Universe, some things are even more Black and white. That's just how things are.
The aim of the Underverse, is to give a little... reality to this world. It is literally hell, a place of torture and hopelessness. I'm not religious or anything, but in my eyes, Hell (as a metaphorical place) is a place of eternal torture that WILL change a person. There shouldn't be any EASY way out, but it also shouldn't be so difficult that people want to give up their characters, but it should be difficult enough in the sense that it will cause your characters to look at things in a different way.
That's just what I think of the place.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Schwi Dola - 11-22-2015
Diablo being the only way out is enough reason to give up on a character once banished. Geno for instance. If there was literally no other way out and I believed that would stay that way, if Geno was banished I would simply drop him. There would be nowhere to go with his story.
I don't believe that Diablo is the only way out. Its just that simple.
You want to get to the issue, its just that. Black and White. People don't want to lose their characters and when its ally with Diablo or never RP again, its a legitimate concern.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Magus - 11-22-2015
Respectfully, I think we're getting off-track.
I don't think anyone's in disagreement that the Underverse is an unhappy place. But, given that the entire purpose of this site is to be a fun place to share stories with one another, the Underverse shouldn't be so restrictive that it's not fun anymore, because that defeats the purpose of this place.
Making something difficult to achieve/"tough" while still being fun is possible. I believe you want the player to feel like they've achieved something by getting out and I agree with that sentiment. These are all good things, and I don't believe that's what's at issue here.
In its current, somewhat severe punishment (and it is a 'punishment' in a way: either your personal story is on hold or you're 'out of the way' and cannot defend your friends/etc. It's a consequence), it only costs 250 OM and winning a fight (which can sometimes be seriously close - look at the Colosseum) to send someone away for probably a month or so of regular-ish writing, and that totally depends on how much time someone's willing/able to invest. Maybe if you can get rid of someone for an entire month or more, it should cost more to balance it and make it a less common weapon.
Or, maybe instead of raising the price, the 'penalty' is reduced to something a little less substantial - this might be a more elegant solution if the intention is for this to be a fairly likely threat/deterrent for the 'bad' people in the Omniverse.
I'm in favor of seeing a reduction in the level of difficulty getting out of the Underverse. I think it's something that might be conducive to prevent 'Underverse burnout' that seems to happen.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Minato Namikaze - 11-23-2015
Desco Wrote:I don't believe that Diablo is the only way out. Its just that simple.
I'm not trying to start a fight, but this sort of stance is completely irrelevant. Just because we may think something, does not necessarily mean that it is how it is or should be.
I, myself, believe that there should be other options to get you out of the Underverse. But at the moment, the only way to get out is through Diablo, whether we chose to believe it or not.
Edit: And I am not saying that there is no merit in discussing possible, future, options. By all means, discuss away guys, that's what this forum is for.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Violet - 11-23-2015
Magus Wrote:Respectfully, I think we're getting off-track.
I don't think anyone's in disagreement that the Underverse is an unhappy place. But, given that the entire purpose of this site is to be a fun place to share stories with one another, the Underverse shouldn't be so restrictive that it's not fun anymore, because that defeats the purpose of this place.
Making something difficult to achieve/"tough" while still being fun is possible. I believe you want the player to feel like they've achieved something by getting out and I agree with that sentiment. These are all good things, and I don't believe that's what's at issue here.
In its current, somewhat severe punishment (and it is a 'punishment' in a way: either your personal story is on hold or you're 'out of the way' and cannot defend your friends/etc. It's a consequence), it only costs 250 OM and winning a fight (which can sometimes be seriously close - look at the Colosseum) to send someone away for probably a month or so of regular-ish writing, and that totally depends on how much time someone's willing/able to invest. Maybe if you can get rid of someone for an entire month or more, it should cost more to balance it and make it a less common weapon.
Or, maybe instead of raising the price, the 'penalty' is reduced to something a little less substantial - this might be a more elegant solution if the intention is for this to be a fairly likely threat/deterrent for the 'bad' people in the Omniverse.
I'm in favor of seeing a reduction in the level of difficulty getting out of the Underverse. I think it's something that might be conducive to prevent 'Underverse burnout' that seems to happen.
^ This, in addition to some kind of cooldown on banishment rings, such as 30 days or something between uses, and 30-60 days after a person gets out of Underverse before someone can use one on them again.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Guu - 11-23-2015
I agree, it's such a huge punishment for only 250 OM. At least have an option that doesn't outright require you to join an evil faction to get out so the good aligned characters aren't more punished than the evil ones.
Also, it stops making sense IC after a while. Why would the Empire and Camelot even encourage banishments in their bounties if it forces people to become Diablo's agents? You'd be turning one time homicide convicts into hardened subordinates of your worst enemy. That seems kind of counter-intuitive.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Thaal Sinestro - 11-23-2015
I don't think Camelot and th Empire KNOW yet? Like, nobody has ever made it out of the Underverse. But you are right about that once people start clawing their way out and they're like, "Uhhhhh... wut"
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Guu - 11-23-2015
No Player Characters have escaped, that is true. However, we haven't confirmed that no NPCs have made it out already.
And if Diablo has a way out of the Underverse, I doubt he'd resist sending some agents through before now.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Thaal Sinestro - 11-23-2015
Huh! I had thought that nobody at all was aware of anyone that escaped! But one way or another, your point still stands.
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Tom Marvolo Riddle - 11-23-2015
Option one: Chaotic Path - Join Diablo or in some way interact him in such a way that he sends you back. Alternatively, kill him so you have enough time to explore his palace to find an exit.
Option two: Moderate Path - Void Route path, many cracks in the omniverse have formed since the sealing of the Underverse. These cracks lead to the Void and the void leads out, provided you actually survive the void. Once established a character may easily return or leave along this path though they may face adversaries if they are ever tracked. Storytellers are encouraged to lay traps and ambushes should players use these paths too often.
Option three: The Light Path - Tyriel sacrificed himself to seal off the underverse and failed. People have been banished by the dozen each year as more primes and power hungry secondaries become more numerous. And worse those who have clawed their way to freedom have stretched his seal to the breaking point. Up until now every bit of omnilium Tyriel has gained has been used to reinforce the seal. No more. Its become a fruitless venture, the seal will break eventually. Now he is only trying to mitigate the fallout. He spends his time now slaying evil, regaining his strength though its a shadow of its former level and hardening secret passes only he knows about, those who prove themselves worthy will be sent back to the Nexus with the duty of warning others that "The seals are breaking, I can no longer hold against the tide."
New Quest: Demon Hunt - Every time someone is banished via a Banishment Circle at a random time a demon secondary of equivalent power can escape through the site of banishing. What happens if you banish something/someone like the Emperor?
Re: Concerns regarding Underverse & the questline - Sasuke Uchiha - 11-23-2015
Arthuria Pendragon Wrote:The IssueIt has been said multiple times that the only way out is through Diablo himself by becoming his lackey. In addition to that, the quest line itself requires a 20 - 40k word amount of work.
Quoting Proto Mouse on that, (Or sources for these statements)
here
and
here.
For the lazy, there are quotes inside the spoiler.
[spoiler]Proto Mouse Wrote:I hate to be the bad guy, but unless an additional quest is released or the current quest description is changed/expanded, Diablo is the only way out.
You are free to do whatever else you'd like to in the Underverse, but the only individual with a way out of the Underverse is Diablo.
Proto Mouse Wrote:@Nealaphh - No. All Tyrael can do is act as a guide for primes. He'll ultimately tell the prime that only Diablo has the route out. Please note it says 'He can point you in the right direction.' That direction? Diablo.[/spoiler]
@Pendragon - You have to become his lackey. This is the Prime Evil we're talking about. He's not going to just let you out because you got bloody.
There's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the Omniverse.
But we must ask. Is this really how it should be?
While we completely understand, that much like Proto said, there's a reason why the Underverse is the worst, most god-awful place in the whole Omniverse, we feel that the Banishment stops being a “punishment” for the character (an interesting and challenging storyline to have) and becomes a punishment to the player instead.
The 20-40k word requirement is a big obstacle to pass. It takes a comparatively long time to scrap together, especially if you’re adamant on writing an enjoyable story out of it. This however isn’t the issue in our opinion. In our opinion, the issue is the choice you’re forced to make.
If your only option to escape the Underverse is to make a decision that you know your character wouldn’t make (For example, joining Diablo) you will have no motivation to write the quest out to begin with.
This would mean the player has to choose between:
1. Accepting their fate and leaving the character in Underverse forever.
2. OOC:ly deciding to have the character make a decision that they would never make, just to get them out. (Becoming Diablo’s subordinate)
3. Trying to lie to Diablo, and if the character escapes and gets banished again (which they likely would, as mentioned in the reasoning above), stay in the Underverse forever, as Diablo wouldn’t likely let them out due to lying already the last time.
4. Resetting the character.
I am only going to touch on the parts I have in bold. Diablo has the only exit and aiding his cause IS the only way out, however, no one said your character had to WILLINGLY do this. I agree in that we shouldn't force your character to act in a way they wouldn't, but nothing is stopping you from having your Character FORCED into service. It's hell, you could have your character chained and prodded the whole time.
You character doesn't have to DECIDE to enter the arena. You can literally have them thrown in; forced to partake. (Kicking and screaming about it the whole time) It's hell, you're probably going to be forced to do things you don't like. That doesn't mean you character has to CHOSE to do them. Have them forced and given no other option.
Remember folks: Its not what you say, but how you say it!