+- Omni Archive (https://omni.zulenka.com)
+-- Forum: Discussion Forums (https://omni.zulenka.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Omniverse Discussion (https://omni.zulenka.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=22)
+--- Thread: Water Walking (/showthread.php?tid=3177)
Re: Water Walking - Minato Namikaze - 11-20-2015
Desco Wrote:http://terraria.gamepedia.com/Water_Walking_Boots
Magic anything.
Weighing 3 pounds to begin with and in similar fashion to small insects.
Anything that creates an effective ship on your feet. Water Skates, though you'd need a little more tech to them to make them as mobile as magic.
And Desco, or the majority of the characters on this site, would know of these things, that don't exist in their Canon?
Re: Water Walking - Yu Kanda - 11-20-2015
Terrain should matter in a fight and does matter. You can write advantages using your surroundings. I am not really sure how you dont see it as an advantage or how you dont see the terrain as a important factor for combat.
This discussion doesnt really make sense...no matter howmuch you want to debate it....walking on water will be a move. Now matter how you spin it
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
You can learn of them here. Plenty of characters wouldn't even know what space is let alone how to survive in it, or about underwater breathing apparatus.
But more to the point is, water walking has no advantage and is actually a disadvantage to two things you have as 'Rp Fodder' for free.
Its just RP fodder for how you deal with water as a terrain.
The counter to this is an assumption I didn't originally account for and editted into my last post so I'll ask again.
Can you swim as fast as you can run? (If the answer to this would be no then I guess water walking is an advantage and would be a proper move)
Not you personally, could anyone do so as RP Fodder?
EDIT:
Another note, if Water Walking requires OM to have then likewise 10 speed wouldn't let you actually run on water. The descriptions in the rules are, paraphrased from what I remember when talking about it to various staff, not hard and fast. They are just a sampling for comparative value and not necessarily the actual things you would do with that amount.
You'd need 300 OM Water Walking to walk on water via Growth (a small enough body can just walk on water with surface tension) or 300 OM To shapeshift with malleable to stand on water by the same principle
Re: Water Walking - Minato Namikaze - 11-20-2015
Water in the Omniverse effects movement the same as it does in real life.
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
So then mermen, Or Merman for that matter, can swim through water as fast as they run on land?
Or Blastoise? Swampert? Greninja? Not Psyduck, he drowns in water. Until you tell him he can breath in it. :psy:
Re: Water Walking - Minato Namikaze - 11-20-2015
Yes, because they are built for it. Fins, fish like qualities, streamlined for water travel etc.
Before you start saying this is unfair, that is just a character trait. if you think it's unfair, then don't get into an underwater fight with a water dwelling character. Simple
Re: Water Walking - Yu Kanda - 11-20-2015
I would also like to point out that second guessing every single word an angel speaks does not really help. You obviously dont agree...but it wont help. Rules are rules.
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
Then it continues to stand Minato. You've approved a water creature to have RP fodder to swim in water as fast as they run on land. A clear and decisive advantage underwater vs someone that can't (and we know, most can't). So why can't they walk on water if that is what they do in their canon? Saber does it, its a natural attribute. Why does she pay 300 OM for something that isn't as good as what others get as RP fodder?
It is a discussion worth having and no its not important. You don't have to respond to my questions about 'why' because a staff decision was already made (which was no). Unless you want to discuss which I am more than happy to continue with. If we can avoid repeating the same information over and over again. (which we haven't)
I don't agree with it because I don't yet have an answer that makes sense to me personally. I'm fine with just leaving it with that if you wish no further discussion.
Let me reiterate because this is very important. Its not a big deal. Just because its a topic and a discussion, its not a huge concern. Not everything has to be world shattering.
Re: Water Walking - 2B - 11-20-2015
Desco Wrote:Then it continues to stand Minato. You've approved a water creature to have RP fodder to swim in water as fast as they run on land. A clear and decisive advantage underwater vs someone that can't (and we know, most can't). So why can't they walk on water if that is what they do in their canon? Saber does it, its a natural attribute. Why does she pay 300 OM for something that isn't as good as what others get as RP fodder?
It is a discussion worth having and no its not important. You don't have to respond to my questions about 'why' because a staff decision was already made (which was no). Unless you want to discuss which I am more than happy to continue with. If we can avoid repeating the same information over and over again. (which we haven't)
I'll bop in here just to explain what Desco means by that, just to provide context if someone doesn't know.
"She cannot be impeded by water due to her body having received divine blessing from the Lady of the Lake. The miracle from the blessing allows her to advance undeterred on water at full sprinting speed, which gains hardness identical to ground even while her feet splash against the surface."
Source: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_(Fate/stay_night">http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_(Fate/stay_night</a><!-- m -->)
- Arthuria out.
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
3 is a good number. Repetition creates memory.
This is as 'important' as what I'm about to eat for breakfast. I fancy it as a good discussion worthy topic that I'm not yet satisfied in.
I like to talk.
I have these examples and facts, you have your examples and facts. We compare notes, find new facts, consider and decide upon those new facts. Repeat until all parties are satisfied with talking about it or no new information comes available.
I still don't get why the decision is what it is so I reply, with new information or conclusions.
I also put my all into these kinds of things. Most people should know that about me already
. I don't want to push it, I just want to talk.
Re: Water Walking - Yu Kanda - 11-20-2015
I do believe minato made a mistake regarding natural attributes. Once again....an angel...would it be fair to use his wings to fly without buying an expensivr power first ? No it isnt. Natural attributes are nerfed here because of omnifysics.
The reason its there is because of equality...so that every prime starts at the same point and can grow towards their canon char with moves.
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
Yea but I think Flight was a given because its a power. There wouldn't be as much to bring those up, unless as examples/counter-examples to the topic at hand.
Re: Water Walking - Strazio Rockwell - 11-20-2015
So being able to breath underwater/in space does confer an advantage, but everyone has access to that advantage. It is your choice if your character can't swim well or similarly cannot breath in space. If I was fighting a merman for example it would be good storytelling to have him have an advantage in water against me, but that doesn't mean I am useless. Hell I could say that my character is so physically fit/talented that he has the same ability in water that a merman does, because you both have the option to breath and swim well underwater. It just doesn't make sense for characters. Its the same way that I have a self-imposed restriction on my power-up it doesn't need to be there, but I add it for flavor. Everyone has access to a power-up, it is just my choice to limit mine.
Water walking is different because it directly conveys a combat advantage that not everyone has access to. Regardless of whether you see the usefulness or not (and I believe it offers advantages that swimming does not). It is a distinct advantage in combat that others cannot have simply by virtue of existing. Therefore it must be paid for because it is not something that is built-in allowed by the rules.
As far as summoning water-walking boots or other modes of water walking you simply couldn't use them in a fight, at least not very effectively. Imagine that your character has a laser beam attack. In real life and in most fiction settings lasers can be reflected using a mirror. If I were to summon a mirror I couldn't use it to reflect your attack unless I paid money and made it a move. Similarly if I summoned a pipe it would be an incidental weapon and not be nearly as effective as if I made it a move, in fact it would be almost useless in combat.
Does that make sense?
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
That's taking it from the wrong perspective in my view. Let's Summarize.
Swimming fast underwater is a combat advantage vs those that don't.
Breathing underwater is a combat advantage vs those that don't.
Breathing in space is a combat advantage vs those that don't.
Walking on water is a combat advantage vs those that can't breathe underwater/swim fast underwater AND those that can't walk on water
You can do RP Fodder in any way you desire and that includes summoning stuff at random to accomplish it as you please. You don't even need approval for RP Fodder for these RP Fodder moves.
I understand what you said, and that is how it is 'right now'. Minato already said all of it. I don't think that is how it should be.
You have to buy a move to walk on water but someone with RP Fodder 'Swim Fast' and 'Breathe Underwater' has significant advantages over you. Over what you spent 300 OM to have.
The heart of the matter is its weaker than RP Fodder moves.
Have I missed anything that wasn't already stated?
Re: Water Walking - Monkey D. Luffy - 11-20-2015
The help desk is not intended for the purpose of satiating players desire to debate. Take that to the Omniverse Discussion board. The original proposed inquiry of this topic has been answered in length. Water Walking is a utility Move that costs OM. It bypasses the time required to summon a device that may serve the same function. This ruling is final.
I won't lock the topic, but if the back and forth continues, I will.
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
Er, that was the intent to begin with. I asked why, and follow up questions. I thought this was still appropriate here, but if its better in the discussion forum please move it. ^^
I never asked 'what'. That was already answered in quick questions.
Re: Water Walking - Trixie - 11-20-2015
There's one point I haven't seen discussed here, or maybe I missed it, but Minato's reasoning touched on it. He just didn't elaborate further. In a personal or group story line, that is simply writing for the enjoyment of writing you have battles and and events that are pre-planned. Every battle Trixie would get into with Nova is planned ahead of time to give myself an idea of the battlefield and what obstacles to expect. This is where RP Fodder excels. You could have your character use a special issued pair of anti-gravity boots to slide across the surface of the water after an NPC target. It's a plot device just like in a movie. It's there to add excitement and to benefit the reader. Keeping them entertained and to make the writing suspenseful.
What the staff are saying and why Water Walking was priced/purchased at 300 OM is because Uruu wanted to do this in a competitive nature (in PVP fights). On this website a PvP fight has it's own doctrine on what kind of narrative you can weave and restricts both that and the things you can do to each other. You are limited to what you have as a character and what you've purchased legitimately. That sole reason is why the move was priced at 300, because precedence says that if you plan on using an ability against other people it needs to be purchased so it can be regulated and worded properly. That's it.
Make sense?
Re: Water Walking - Kakashi Hatake - 11-20-2015
So this has been more or less wrapped up staff-wise, but in the spirit of discussion I wanted to add my two cents.
The major point in all of this I think is that as the rules are explicitly written currently, you'd need the move. If Omni decides to change this and state that anyone can waterwalk (similar to how we can all now summon rebreathers), then the point becomes moot. He's put a lot of thought into his rules so I imagine he wouldn't have overlooked something like this. This has I think been stated already above, but I wanted to underline it.
As for how it relates to other movements, I have some thoughts. The idea of walking on water inherently gives an advantage to characters that don't have it (again, already stated but humor me). As for how this relates to breathing underwater and swimming well, it's important to note that Omniphysics has a role; stating it as a facet of your character does not give a combat advantage. Most importantly, any 'better swimming' inherent to a character does NOT alter stats. It's just flavor. SPD and TEC always rule how this stuff works, regardless of how your character works. It would be unfair if a character like Kisame just kicked everyone's ass in the 'Deep due to him being a fishy fella.
For breathing underwater/space, any advantages gained by a character not having these would be again, flavor. As they are available to everyone, if you opt out it's a decision you'd need to work with. In a graded fight having a rebreather would not effect your combat at all, it's up to your writing. I'd argue that RPing your character frantically fighting while holding his breath would be a better read anyway. Having a water walk move would allow movement in a way that is not currently allowed to everyone, which separates it from fodder. This is similar to how flight is needed to circumvent how a character normally moves through the air. With both air and water being fluids, they're definitionally different than terrain. Without word from Omni that everyone can waterwalk, it's an advantage in the same way that flight is an advantage as it allows you to work differently with water than you otherwise would.
The Waterwalk vs. Fastswim-Rebreather arguement is not a fair one. With current knowledge, being underwater slows one down. Even with a blurb in your bio about swimming faster, you would still be outpaced by someone with higher SPD stat regardless of medium (yay Omniphysics), and this would be accentuated by one participant being underwater. You'd have a CLEAR advantage in at least SPD. This is why having a 300 OM move is needed. Any move that is fodder is by it's very nature less useful than a costly one. Buying the move would allow you to escape/pull off other moves better as it makes you mobile in a way that others aren't.
Anyway, sorry if a lot of this was repeating what others have said. Hopefully it helps.
Re: Water Walking - Schwi Dola - 11-20-2015
It wasn't specifically about the stats (and Ururu's move was pretty broad than this specific scope
) But I suppose in the end it is. I got this.
This means that currently, if it ever came into play, a future Magical Girl Desco with 3 Speed whose submersible nature makes her agile in water as on land (or sky with Flight) would outrun Saber with her 2 speed water walking while underwater. Even walking on water doesn't make a difference to Desco, she has higher speed in this example.
While say Kakashi, who doesn't have Desco's natural aquatic affinity but has that 3 speed would not outrun Saber underwater while she runs over it. Kakashi could get some kind of Chakra flow in RPing and suddenly he can slip through the water as easily as Desco can and outrun Saber underwater no OM spent.
Or as you said, the medium doesn't matter so Kakashi could swim through water faster than Saber can run on water with OM and the ability literally meant nothing to begin with.
It makes a difference in that other players in the PvP situation you describe can overcome OM with RP Fodder. What else would water walking fight against except for those that cannot swim like a fish? What does it do in a PvP situation when water slowing you down doesn't matter anyway?
Rather, if swimming as fast as you run also costed OM, water walking wouldn't be countered by rp fodder to begin with.
Re: Water Walking - Kakashi Hatake - 11-20-2015
The point I'm making is that saying you're more maneuverable in water as RP fodder would not make you faster than someone else with the same stats as that augments a stat without a cost. You can write yourself as maybe finding it easier to move around (like purely a 'this feels so much easier than running' or whatever) but in the end even if someone like Okor (huge and heavy) had higher speed than you (small, light and tentacle-y), he'd outpace you in an underwater race. If you'd want a real advantage, I'd go for an alt from like Orion did with Zora Link and jack the speed up. It might not make any sense, but bear in mind that we remove stuff like water moves ultra-hurting fire-based characters and such. It's all in the 'great balancing effect'.
Also keep in mind what I said above: water slows you down. The fastest human swimmer can move at roughly 5mph while the fastest runner can move at nearly 28mph. This gap is smaller for a normal/athletic person, but would be more noticeable the faster you tried to move. Bullets completely stop after just a few feet. This is all real-world physics of course, so I can be overstepped if someone clarifies how Omniphysics would work here. But that's the best I have to go on. As for my 'medium doesn't matter' point, you're changing what I meant. The medium absolutely matters when speed comes into play with players that are in DIFFERENT media (water vs air in this case). My point is describing when they're together underwater or together above. As I mentioned, friction is a bitch when you want to go fast. Water seriously hampers movement (IRL anyway).
So as I stated in my last post, you wouldn't be able to fodder up something that changes your stats or how basic physics effects your character if it has combat use. You could try to get a move approved that lets you move in water as on land, though that's above my pay-grade to judge. To answer the question of combat use, if you bear in mind that you'll always be faster 'on land' than in the water, it's apparent. Moves from a foe underwater would be slower and moves from a foe in mid-swim would be less accurate. Standing on the water would negate these negatives and give you full range of ability to attack them as you see fit. It would also allow you to get out of range of foes that see this issue and choose not to dive in. That's the reason that Arthuria and Ururu had to pay for their bonuses.
Any of the above can be annulled by a Omni/Proto appearance, but that's to the best of my knowledge.